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> Would you show up for your job tomorrow if they stopped paying you? If the answer is "no", I sincerely hope you are looking for a job that the answer could be

> Would you show up for your job tomorrow if they stopped paying you? If the answer is "no", I sincerely hope you are looking for a job that the answer could be "yes". If you aren't, then I assert you are in the process of tacit self-immolation. I haven't yet found a job that pays me to sit around and read a lot, or spend time with my girlfriend, or take long walks in the woods to think, or any of the other things I would actually do whether I got paid or not. Let me know if you know where I can find one. It's not that I don't enjoy my work. I just don't enjoy it enough to do on any kind of regular basis without getting paid. Maybe one day I'll somehow come into money and never have to work again, but otherwise I'll be spending the rest of my life in self-immolation. I guess I should feel a little envious of people that enjoy their job so much they'd do it without getting paid, but most of the time I can't muster it up. Most work most people do just seems so dreary to me.

nickbauman 12y ago
We have a framing issue. (vo·ca·tion: late Middle English: from Old French, or from Latin vocatio(n-), from vocare "to call.") I like to read, take long walks, talk to my spouse in an unplanned, sporadic way because by their very nature, those things are not really "vocations". This is about what CALLS you to work, not about what's necessarily pleasurable or a pastime.
- Amezarak 12y ago
  No, I understand that. What I'm saying is that I have no "calling" and do not expect to ever have a calling. I do development work because it makes me money, I am very good at it, and solving solvable problems feels nice, but if you dropped 10 million in my lap I doubt I would ever touch a line of code again. Barring the vicissitudes of fortune, I'd spend the rest of my life relaxing, spending time with people I like, going about reading the same kinds of books I do now, perhaps traveling a bit, and perhaps if I was really bored I'd sit down and write a book of insights unlikely to be interesting or original. I wouldn't feel called to do anything. Heck, if someone offered me 10k more to do some other non-development job and it wasn't more strenuous and didn't require more time out of my day, I'd do that. If they paid me to go to school and learn something I know next-to-nothing about like, I don't know, biochemistry, that'd be fine and I'd be just as happy. I look around me and I really don't think most other people have a calling either. Maybe I'm wrong. They work because they have to get by, not because they love their work. The HN community (and therefore I assume much of SV in general) seems to me to extraordinary in that regard. Of course there are other people, professions, and communities with a disproportionate amount of those who feel they're called to their profession. But overall I think it's the exception rather than the rule.
  - nickbauman 12y ago
    So if I said I'd pay you x more amount than what you're currently making, to don a rubber smock and pack pickles for a living for the rest of your life, is it just a question of what x is?
    - Amezarak 12y ago
      Yes, absolutely. Indeed I was slightly happier back when I was doing menial physical labor, since it left my mind free to think, and when I got home, I was physically tired but not mentally exhausted like I am from days of coding binges and context switches. But since X is probably about ~25k (which is what I'm shooting for as a developer anyway within the next 5 years), and I already make more than the average pickle-packer, I don't think that's going to happen. :)
      - nickbauman 12y ago
        Thanks for that clarification. Yeah I could never do it. Having a job like that would kill my spirit no matter how much money I made. It would be the ultimate "take the blue pill" decision I could make.
- zenogais 12y ago
  The concept of a vocation is a fairly recent invention, mostly arising out of the Protestant brand of Christianity. Work has been disdained throughout most of history [1]. Therefore, I would say that liking your work or finding your calling are not things that everyone can even do or has to do. The idea of a vocation strikes me more as intellectual rationalizations arising in tandem with the current economic mode of life. [1] http://www.amazon.com/The-History-Work-Richard-Donkin/dp/0230238939 http://www.amazon.com/The-History-Work-Richard-Donkin/dp/023...
  - nickbauman 12y ago
    That's very interesting. I suspect folks like Marcus Aurelius, Lao Tze, Socrates, Murasaki Shikibu and their ilk knew what a "calling" was long before there was a word for it.
    - Amezarak 12y ago
      I agree with GP - that's quite anachronistic. I can't speak for Murasaki Shikibu, since I haven't read her, but I think the idea is quite discordant with the published thoughts of the others you mention. Socrates, for example, might have believed he personally had a specific purpose in the world, but he would have understood that in a very different way than our conception of a vocation.
      - nickbauman 12y ago
        Really. Vocation is analogous with the notion of 'personally having a specific purpose in the world', according to the dictionary's first definition of the word.
nostrademons 12y ago
FWIW, many thinktanks and research consultancies pay you to sit around and read a lot, and occasionally even take long walks in the woods to think. There are often pretty steep barriers to entry - they usually recruit out of the Ivy League or top liberal arts colleges, and it usually helps to know someone there if you want to get in - but those jobs do exist.
- DougN7 12y ago
  They also require you to think and read about whatever their focus is. There are probably few think tanks that match up to everyone's favorite reading materials. There's no getting around the fact that 99.999% of us will have to be paid daily to do something we wouldn't choose to spend the same amount of free time on.
lomnakkus 12y ago
> I haven't yet found a job that pays me to sit around and read a lot [...] Then I contend that you haven't found a place of employment that values you as an individual and just views you as a cog in a giant machine -- in which case: leave as soon as you can! If possible, start your own business. (Btw, there are places that value individuals, but they are alas few and far between :(. )
- DougN7 12y ago
  I don't understand what you mean. A business has to produce output that others are willing to pay for. Sitting around reading and spending time with a girlfriend are not things most other people will pay you for. It's easy to value a person as an individual - it's quite another thing to take money out of your pocket and give to everyone you 'value' because they are individuals.
  - lomnakkus 12y ago
    Oh, sorry. I'm from a tradition where "read a lot" means expanding your mind. (I'm assuming you're not reading pointless romance novels, and such.) My response was predicated on the idea that your employer was not valuing intellectual/cultural education. (If that doesn't apply, then I'm doubly sorry.) EDIT: I now realize this comment may sound ridiculously smug, but I'm not sure what to do about that. I do realize that I am privileged (by location of birth, etc.), FWIW.
    - Amezarak 12y ago
      I am presently reading the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire. What employers can you think of who would pay me to read that? And when I finish, and I next want to re-read Nietzsche are they going to pay me for that too? What about when I need a break from serious reading and spend a few weeks reading sci-fi or fantasy? These things are simply not of value to any employer I know, and I don't see why they would want to or should pay me for it.

nickbauman 12y ago

We have a framing issue. (vo·ca·tion: late Middle English: from Old French, or from Latin vocatio(n-), from vocare "to call.") I like to read, take long walks, talk to my spouse in an unplanned, sporadic way because by their very nature, those things are not really "vocations". This is about what CALLS you to work, not about what's necessarily pleasurable or a pastime.

Amezarak 12y ago
No, I understand that. What I'm saying is that I have no "calling" and do not expect to ever have a calling. I do development work because it makes me money, I am very good at it, and solving solvable problems feels nice, but if you dropped 10 million in my lap I doubt I would ever touch a line of code again. Barring the vicissitudes of fortune, I'd spend the rest of my life relaxing, spending time with people I like, going about reading the same kinds of books I do now, perhaps traveling a bit, and perhaps if I was really bored I'd sit down and write a book of insights unlikely to be interesting or original. I wouldn't feel called to do anything. Heck, if someone offered me 10k more to do some other non-development job and it wasn't more strenuous and didn't require more time out of my day, I'd do that. If they paid me to go to school and learn something I know next-to-nothing about like, I don't know, biochemistry, that'd be fine and I'd be just as happy. I look around me and I really don't think most other people have a calling either. Maybe I'm wrong. They work because they have to get by, not because they love their work. The HN community (and therefore I assume much of SV in general) seems to me to extraordinary in that regard. Of course there are other people, professions, and communities with a disproportionate amount of those who feel they're called to their profession. But overall I think it's the exception rather than the rule.
- nickbauman 12y ago
  So if I said I'd pay you x more amount than what you're currently making, to don a rubber smock and pack pickles for a living for the rest of your life, is it just a question of what x is?
  - Amezarak 12y ago
    Yes, absolutely. Indeed I was slightly happier back when I was doing menial physical labor, since it left my mind free to think, and when I got home, I was physically tired but not mentally exhausted like I am from days of coding binges and context switches. But since X is probably about ~25k (which is what I'm shooting for as a developer anyway within the next 5 years), and I already make more than the average pickle-packer, I don't think that's going to happen. :)
    - nickbauman 12y ago
      Thanks for that clarification. Yeah I could never do it. Having a job like that would kill my spirit no matter how much money I made. It would be the ultimate "take the blue pill" decision I could make.
zenogais 12y ago
The concept of a vocation is a fairly recent invention, mostly arising out of the Protestant brand of Christianity. Work has been disdained throughout most of history [1]. Therefore, I would say that liking your work or finding your calling are not things that everyone can even do or has to do. The idea of a vocation strikes me more as intellectual rationalizations arising in tandem with the current economic mode of life. [1] http://www.amazon.com/The-History-Work-Richard-Donkin/dp/0230238939 http://www.amazon.com/The-History-Work-Richard-Donkin/dp/023...
- nickbauman 12y ago
  That's very interesting. I suspect folks like Marcus Aurelius, Lao Tze, Socrates, Murasaki Shikibu and their ilk knew what a "calling" was long before there was a word for it.
  - Amezarak 12y ago
    I agree with GP - that's quite anachronistic. I can't speak for Murasaki Shikibu, since I haven't read her, but I think the idea is quite discordant with the published thoughts of the others you mention. Socrates, for example, might have believed he personally had a specific purpose in the world, but he would have understood that in a very different way than our conception of a vocation.
    - nickbauman 12y ago
      Really. Vocation is analogous with the notion of 'personally having a specific purpose in the world', according to the dictionary's first definition of the word.

nostrademons 12y ago

FWIW, many thinktanks and research consultancies pay you to sit around and read a lot, and occasionally even take long walks in the woods to think. There are often pretty steep barriers to entry - they usually recruit out of the Ivy League or top liberal arts colleges, and it usually helps to know someone there if you want to get in - but those jobs do exist.

DougN7 12y ago
They also require you to think and read about whatever their focus is. There are probably few think tanks that match up to everyone's favorite reading materials. There's no getting around the fact that 99.999% of us will have to be paid daily to do something we wouldn't choose to spend the same amount of free time on.

lomnakkus 12y ago

> I haven't yet found a job that pays me to sit around and read a lot [...] Then I contend that you haven't found a place of employment that values you as an individual and just views you as a cog in a giant machine -- in which case: leave as soon as you can! If possible, start your own business. (Btw, there are places that value individuals, but they are alas few and far between :(. )

DougN7 12y ago
I don't understand what you mean. A business has to produce output that others are willing to pay for. Sitting around reading and spending time with a girlfriend are not things most other people will pay you for. It's easy to value a person as an individual - it's quite another thing to take money out of your pocket and give to everyone you 'value' because they are individuals.
- lomnakkus 12y ago
  Oh, sorry. I'm from a tradition where "read a lot" means expanding your mind. (I'm assuming you're not reading pointless romance novels, and such.) My response was predicated on the idea that your employer was not valuing intellectual/cultural education. (If that doesn't apply, then I'm doubly sorry.) EDIT: I now realize this comment may sound ridiculously smug, but I'm not sure what to do about that. I do realize that I am privileged (by location of birth, etc.), FWIW.
  - Amezarak 12y ago
    I am presently reading the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire. What employers can you think of who would pay me to read that? And when I finish, and I next want to re-read Nietzsche are they going to pay me for that too? What about when I need a break from serious reading and spend a few weeks reading sci-fi or fantasy? These things are simply not of value to any employer I know, and I don't see why they would want to or should pay me for it.