5 ms·

Interesting question. I think many, men and women, are still biased against women because they believe they are catty and dramatic or are afraid of increased l

Interesting question. I think many, men and women, are still biased against women because they believe they are catty and dramatic or are afraid of increased legal issues (lawsuits). These are obviously not reality either and it too sucks.

mistermann 12y ago
Is "women are less likely to counter-offer and negotiate during the hiring process" obviously not reality also? (Serious question.)
- SteveGerencser 12y ago
  It is very likely. My wife is a very well respected Engineer in her field and when she was asked to come out of retirement, she retired to start a farm and enjoy the outdoors, they called her back and made what I thought was a very low offer. She was going to accept it because to her it was a work from home gig and was near what she used to make. I said no and helped her negotiate an additional 30% in her rate that she would have simply left on the table because she didn't feel comfortable asking for more.* *Yes, anecdotal evidence but I hear it from her and her female engineering friends a lot. To the point I've offered to help any of them negotiate their contracts in the future.
  - squozzer 12y ago
    You may have found a calling. I hope you consider expanding the scope of your activities beyond your wife's friends. What would make it worth your while?
  - mystique 12y ago
    I agree with squozzer, you should consider expanding your activities beyond folks who know you personally. I really like my work and I work a lot. I have worked in early-mid stage startup and now am working with a pre-series A stage startup. I have never shied away from asking for more responsibilities or climbing up the management chain. I am generally known as the more assertive person in the organization. But when it comes to compensation, I cannot bring it up. Not sure if it has to do with being a female. It would be ideal if there was a 'go to' person who can push me more in negotiating for better compensation.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - tomp 12y ago
    > I hear it from her and her female engineering friends a lot. Well, the two variables your subjects have in common is being engineers as well as being female. Personally (being a male engineer), I'd say being a bad negotiator has just as much to do with being an engineer as being a woman (except if women engineers are even worse negotiators than I am).
TheLoneWolfling 12y ago
There's also an issue with maternity leave. Maternity leave means that women effectively cost more than men for the same amount of work, in the long run and on average. This can be mitigated by laws, but cannot be eliminated without addressing the underlying social issues. And no, mandatory paternity leave doesn't eliminate it, as there are more single mothers than single fathers. The logic is simple. Companies survive by making a profit. In order to do so, they attempt to cut costs for a given amount of work done. Currently, females on average end up spending more time on paid leave. Hence, there ends up being a bias. And I'm not sure if it is one that can be fixed through legislation. Attempts in that vein tend to be counterproductive at best. It's more of a social issue.
- mystique 12y ago
  In the lifetime of a woman, how many maternity leaves does she take? On average it would be twice and very few women I know have taken more than 8 weeks. The way you put makes it sound like women take 6 months+ time off and everyone else has to pay for it.
  - TheLoneWolfling 12y ago
    The way I put it makes it sound like women take 6+ months time off because, oddly enough, women take 6+ months time off. The average in Canada is 39.6 weeks paid leave. Note that that figure is for children aged 1-3, how many weeks paid leave did their mothers take. The average per women will be higher. The plural of anecdote is not data, and you are no exception. StatCan: http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/11-008-x/2012002/article/11697-eng.htm http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/11-008-x/2012002/article/11697-...
- falcolas 12y ago
  This is less of an issue now than it used to be; most companies offer Paternity leave for the same amount of time these days. This amortizes the cost across all employees.
  - orangecat 12y ago

mistermann 12y ago

Is "women are less likely to counter-offer and negotiate during the hiring process" obviously not reality also? (Serious question.)

SteveGerencser 12y ago
It is very likely. My wife is a very well respected Engineer in her field and when she was asked to come out of retirement, she retired to start a farm and enjoy the outdoors, they called her back and made what I thought was a very low offer. She was going to accept it because to her it was a work from home gig and was near what she used to make. I said no and helped her negotiate an additional 30% in her rate that she would have simply left on the table because she didn't feel comfortable asking for more.* *Yes, anecdotal evidence but I hear it from her and her female engineering friends a lot. To the point I've offered to help any of them negotiate their contracts in the future.
- squozzer 12y ago
  You may have found a calling. I hope you consider expanding the scope of your activities beyond your wife's friends. What would make it worth your while?
- mystique 12y ago
  I agree with squozzer, you should consider expanding your activities beyond folks who know you personally. I really like my work and I work a lot. I have worked in early-mid stage startup and now am working with a pre-series A stage startup. I have never shied away from asking for more responsibilities or climbing up the management chain. I am generally known as the more assertive person in the organization. But when it comes to compensation, I cannot bring it up. Not sure if it has to do with being a female. It would be ideal if there was a 'go to' person who can push me more in negotiating for better compensation.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- tomp 12y ago
  > I hear it from her and her female engineering friends a lot. Well, the two variables your subjects have in common is being engineers as well as being female. Personally (being a male engineer), I'd say being a bad negotiator has just as much to do with being an engineer as being a woman (except if women engineers are even worse negotiators than I am).

TheLoneWolfling 12y ago

There's also an issue with maternity leave. Maternity leave means that women effectively cost more than men for the same amount of work, in the long run and on average. This can be mitigated by laws, but cannot be eliminated without addressing the underlying social issues. And no, mandatory paternity leave doesn't eliminate it, as there are more single mothers than single fathers. The logic is simple. Companies survive by making a profit. In order to do so, they attempt to cut costs for a given amount of work done. Currently, females on average end up spending more time on paid leave. Hence, there ends up being a bias. And I'm not sure if it is one that can be fixed through legislation. Attempts in that vein tend to be counterproductive at best. It's more of a social issue.

mystique 12y ago
In the lifetime of a woman, how many maternity leaves does she take? On average it would be twice and very few women I know have taken more than 8 weeks. The way you put makes it sound like women take 6 months+ time off and everyone else has to pay for it.
- TheLoneWolfling 12y ago
  The way I put it makes it sound like women take 6+ months time off because, oddly enough, women take 6+ months time off. The average in Canada is 39.6 weeks paid leave. Note that that figure is for children aged 1-3, how many weeks paid leave did their mothers take. The average per women will be higher. The plural of anecdote is not data, and you are no exception. StatCan: http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/11-008-x/2012002/article/11697-eng.htm http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/11-008-x/2012002/article/11697-...
falcolas 12y ago
This is less of an issue now than it used to be; most companies offer Paternity leave for the same amount of time these days. This amortizes the cost across all employees.
- orangecat 12y ago