5 ms·

if you think it can be normal to be underpaid... you are using words differently than I am. In this context, by 'underpaid' I mean "getting paid less than t

by lsc 12y ago

if you think it can be normal to be underpaid... you are using words differently than I am. In this context, by 'underpaid' I mean "getting paid less than the prevailing wage for the work you are doing" - and by 'normal' I mean 'average or median- usual' Using my definitions, it's impossible for it to be normal to be underpaid. You are only underpaid if you are getting less than the normal wage. Some people use 'underpaid' to mean something that has to do with the cost of living, and some people use 'normal' to mean "correct" - but that makes for a very different sort of conversation.

eropple 12y ago
It is normal to be underpaid in this industry relative to the astonishing value a software developer creates, yes. This should not be controversial. $85K is low, even taking that into account, for a new college graduate.
- lsc 12y ago
  >It is normal to be underpaid in this industry relative to the astonishing value a software developer creates, yes. Your opinion of how much value a software developer creates is irrelevant, except to the extent that it influences wages you are willing to pay to others, or wages you are willing to accept, and only that matters to the extent that there is demand for you and/or how many developers you can hire. In the real world, median starting salary doesn't even break 70K, much less 85K, according to salary.com, even in silicon valley. http://swz.salary.com/SalaryWizard/Software-Developer-I-Salary-Details-95054-Santa-Clara-CA.aspx http://swz.salary.com/SalaryWizard/Software-Developer-I-Sala... My point, with this thread, is that while yes, there does exist a group of developers who make bank right out the gate and continue to do so throughout their career, for most of us? most of us are median. For most of us, $200K+ a year is purest of fantasy. And $85K right out of school is not bad at all.
  - eropple 12y ago
    > Your opinion of how much value a software developer creates is irrelevant, except to the extent that it influences wages you are willing to pay to others, or wages you are willing to accept, and only that matters to the extent that there is demand for you and/or how many developers you can hire. Or to the extent that the capitalist class can collude (with the help of useful idiots who have bought into the narrative) to avoid paying a wage representative of the value created. Markets with imperfect information are set by the ones with the most information, and that's not the worker. The results are unsurprising. > In the real world, median starting salary doesn't even break 70K, much less 85K, according to salary.com, even in silicon valley. That's great. I live in the real world and I made $85K coming out of college, in Boston, at a decent-not-great company in 2010. In this industry, "median" is fairly terrible.
    - lsc 12y ago
      >Or to the extent that the capitalist class can collude (with the help of useful idiots who have bought into the narrative) to avoid paying a wage representative of the value created. This idea that your wage has much to do with the value you create, well, it's what I believed at your age, too. It's a fun thing to believe when you make more than anyone else you know who is your age. It certainly made me feel valued. But the idea that what you get paid has very much to do with the value of what you produce is obviously silly, unless you have a definition of value that makes one person working at a hedge fund worth ten civil engineers. If we're going with economic models, what you are paid has everything to do with supply and demand for people with your skill. The "value" you produce has something to do with demand, but in this case, value is measured in such a way that one hedge fund analyst is worth ten civil engineers, so it doesn't really map to how a normal person thinks of 'value' - and even then? well, there's always the supply side of things to consider. If other people are able and willing to do your job for less money... >In this industry, "median" is fairly terrible. Compare it, say, to aerospace. I know guys who have masters degrees from places like MIT working at the local defense contractors. Some of these people are better programmers than I am They can't come within 30% of my salary, and I'm a mediocre sysadmin who barely graduated from one of the worst high schools in California. And yeah, I mentioned civil engineers; the people who design physical infrastructure. Roads, bridges, sewer and water systems. They make even less; even with advanced degrees and experience, they are lucky to make half what I do. I mean, yeah. there are other job types that make more money than people who build and support web applications. But compared to, really, everyone but the top-ends of finance, legal, management and medical, we have it pretty good. People whine about making only $100k/yr and having to pay bay area housing prices. What do you think it's like for the people that clean your bathrooms? that make your food? We have it pretty good. I mean, I'm not saying that you shouldn't try to get more, or that it wouldn't be great to get paid more, I'd certainly enjoy a bigger house and a nicer car, and maybe a driver... but sometimes you need to sit back and recognize that even if you aren't in the 1%, well, life in the top quintile isn't bad at all.

by lsc 12y ago

eropple 12y ago

It is normal to be underpaid in this industry relative to the astonishing value a software developer creates, yes. This should not be controversial. $85K is low, even taking that into account, for a new college graduate.

lsc 12y ago
>It is normal to be underpaid in this industry relative to the astonishing value a software developer creates, yes. Your opinion of how much value a software developer creates is irrelevant, except to the extent that it influences wages you are willing to pay to others, or wages you are willing to accept, and only that matters to the extent that there is demand for you and/or how many developers you can hire. In the real world, median starting salary doesn't even break 70K, much less 85K, according to salary.com, even in silicon valley. http://swz.salary.com/SalaryWizard/Software-Developer-I-Salary-Details-95054-Santa-Clara-CA.aspx http://swz.salary.com/SalaryWizard/Software-Developer-I-Sala... My point, with this thread, is that while yes, there does exist a group of developers who make bank right out the gate and continue to do so throughout their career, for most of us? most of us are median. For most of us, $200K+ a year is purest of fantasy. And $85K right out of school is not bad at all.
- eropple 12y ago
  > Your opinion of how much value a software developer creates is irrelevant, except to the extent that it influences wages you are willing to pay to others, or wages you are willing to accept, and only that matters to the extent that there is demand for you and/or how many developers you can hire. Or to the extent that the capitalist class can collude (with the help of useful idiots who have bought into the narrative) to avoid paying a wage representative of the value created. Markets with imperfect information are set by the ones with the most information, and that's not the worker. The results are unsurprising. > In the real world, median starting salary doesn't even break 70K, much less 85K, according to salary.com, even in silicon valley. That's great. I live in the real world and I made $85K coming out of college, in Boston, at a decent-not-great company in 2010. In this industry, "median" is fairly terrible.
  - lsc 12y ago
    >Or to the extent that the capitalist class can collude (with the help of useful idiots who have bought into the narrative) to avoid paying a wage representative of the value created. This idea that your wage has much to do with the value you create, well, it's what I believed at your age, too. It's a fun thing to believe when you make more than anyone else you know who is your age. It certainly made me feel valued. But the idea that what you get paid has very much to do with the value of what you produce is obviously silly, unless you have a definition of value that makes one person working at a hedge fund worth ten civil engineers. If we're going with economic models, what you are paid has everything to do with supply and demand for people with your skill. The "value" you produce has something to do with demand, but in this case, value is measured in such a way that one hedge fund analyst is worth ten civil engineers, so it doesn't really map to how a normal person thinks of 'value' - and even then? well, there's always the supply side of things to consider. If other people are able and willing to do your job for less money... >In this industry, "median" is fairly terrible. Compare it, say, to aerospace. I know guys who have masters degrees from places like MIT working at the local defense contractors. Some of these people are better programmers than I am They can't come within 30% of my salary, and I'm a mediocre sysadmin who barely graduated from one of the worst high schools in California. And yeah, I mentioned civil engineers; the people who design physical infrastructure. Roads, bridges, sewer and water systems. They make even less; even with advanced degrees and experience, they are lucky to make half what I do. I mean, yeah. there are other job types that make more money than people who build and support web applications. But compared to, really, everyone but the top-ends of finance, legal, management and medical, we have it pretty good. People whine about making only $100k/yr and having to pay bay area housing prices. What do you think it's like for the people that clean your bathrooms? that make your food? We have it pretty good. I mean, I'm not saying that you shouldn't try to get more, or that it wouldn't be great to get paid more, I'd certainly enjoy a bigger house and a nicer car, and maybe a driver... but sometimes you need to sit back and recognize that even if you aren't in the 1%, well, life in the top quintile isn't bad at all.