5 ms·

If you live in a "no knock" state you are not nuts at all. I am from the UK and think the whole no knock thing is insane when everyone has easy access to guns (

by bithush 12y ago

If you live in a "no knock" state you are not nuts at all. I am from the UK and think the whole no knock thing is insane when everyone has easy access to guns (both legally and illegally). It is just asking for people to die.

ChuckMcM 12y ago
Its for this reason I would seriously consider making my house 'no knock' safe if I were to build it from scratch. I worry about the conversation starting with "get down police!" rather than something more civil. And it seems you could design a house that would not easily be 'breached' which would mean any unplanned entry would take time and be noisy. Allowing you to start a dialog with the people trying to come in before anyone is in danger of being shot.
- jacquesm 12y ago
  Living in a bunker gets old pretty quickly. No windows that can open either.
  - ryanmarsh 12y ago
    Windows aren't really the problem. Windows are dangerous to be near for the raiding party. To raid proof a dwelling you need things that slow down entry, things that trip, bright lights or sounds that let a raiding party know they've lost the element of surprise, and some form of early warning before someone has reached a breach point such as a door.
- ryanmarsh 12y ago
  Were I to build a new house, yes, I've planned to do this. Jesus I sound nuttier by the minute.
  - robertfw 12y ago
    You're not insane; it's the society we live in that is insane!
- digler990 12y ago
  > you could design a house that would not easily be 'breached' Most US homes have city and county building codes that regulate the number and height of windows, ostensibly for "fire rescue". Maybe you could evade this by buying a rural plot of land that is free of municipal code, but in that case you wouldn't need super security, just a long driveway with pressure sensors that alert you to anyone approaching.
  - mixmax 12y ago
    boat windows are a good idea here. Typically they have a welded metal or aluminium frame and an inset of 6mm hardened glass. Some have a sandwich of several layers of lexan glued together. They come in all shapes and sizes, and can be custommade relatively cheaply. You can get ones that open from the inside. They have to be sturdy since at sea they need to be able to withstand a wave of several tons of water coming at them at full speed. Good luck getting through that.
    - ryanmarsh 12y ago
      You wanna get shot in a raid? Try to going through a window. Go watch the Waco ATF raid footage.
    - PhantomGremlin 12y ago
      One easy retrofit solution (though certainly not anywhere as secure as Lexan) is 3m Window Film. This will probably be good enough to keep flashbangs from being fired thru windows. http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/Window_Film/Solutions/Markets-Products/Residential/Safety-Security_Window_Films/ http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/Window_Film/Solu... The ad copy on that page reads: Because these films help hold the glass together, a stronger barrier is created, slowing down criminals to the point where they may choose to flee for an easier target. Sadly, there's often only a subtle difference between a violent criminal and a SWAT team member. The personality types are often quite similar.
- biot 12y ago
  Just keep in mind that such a house's protection against easy breaches by police (who, in a no-knock scenario, will be equipped for a breach) also prevents easy breaches by ambulance or fire crews. What if you're only able to call for help but you are incapacitated prior to being able to unlock your fortress?
  - ryanmarsh 12y ago
    So I guess that means no claymores planted in the yard. Dang. Seriously though, this is a real concern. How do you build a house that is raid proof but that can be accessed by the fire dept? Maybe we should push the context of the problem back a little bit and ask: how do we de-escalate the police state in the U.S.?
    - fencepost 12y ago
      De-escalation is part of why I'd want that kind of camera system - the signs would serve a dual purpose, A) notifying and hopefully at least heavily clouding charges of "he had no legal right to record, we weren't in a public place, charge him with wiretapping" (I'm in Illinois which is an all-party-consent state) and B) putting police on notice that even if they aren't using body cameras (or they're prone to "malfunction") there will still be recordings. Given the apparent change in officer behavior that accompanies body camera use, perhaps having explicitly noted video and audio surveillance disclosed in advance will serve a similar purpose.
      - jbinto 12y ago
        > I'm in Illinois which is an all-party-consent state It looks like this was overturned in 2014. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illinois_wiretapping_law#Court_proceedings http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illinois_wiretapping_law#Court_... http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/03/20/illinois-supreme-court-strikes-down-broad-ban-on-audiorecording-conversations/ http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014... n.b. I learned about this in a recent episode of "The Good Wife". I am Canadian.
ryanmarsh 12y ago
It really is. It works most of the time for the same reason it works in war, you have the element of surprise. In a population of ordinary citizens you aren't likely to encounter much trouble kicking in doors at 2am. It works for criminals after all. But things are a little different in the US because there are lots of keyed-up gun owning vets that spent most of their military service conducting urban warfare. Put simply, you cannot just roll up on me like that. Just knock on the door politely and I'll come out and chat. Kick in my door like a home-invasion robbery and I'll follow my training without thought.
- samspot 12y ago
  Yeah, unless you are a wanted criminal, there is no reason to assume the people breaking into your house are the police. I didn't even know they did that before reading the flashbang article a few weeks ago: https://www.propublica.org/article/flashbangs https://www.propublica.org/article/flashbangs

by bithush 12y ago

ChuckMcM 12y ago

Its for this reason I would seriously consider making my house 'no knock' safe if I were to build it from scratch. I worry about the conversation starting with "get down police!" rather than something more civil. And it seems you could design a house that would not easily be 'breached' which would mean any unplanned entry would take time and be noisy. Allowing you to start a dialog with the people trying to come in before anyone is in danger of being shot.

jacquesm 12y ago
Living in a bunker gets old pretty quickly. No windows that can open either.
- ryanmarsh 12y ago
  Windows aren't really the problem. Windows are dangerous to be near for the raiding party. To raid proof a dwelling you need things that slow down entry, things that trip, bright lights or sounds that let a raiding party know they've lost the element of surprise, and some form of early warning before someone has reached a breach point such as a door.
ryanmarsh 12y ago
Were I to build a new house, yes, I've planned to do this. Jesus I sound nuttier by the minute.
- robertfw 12y ago
  You're not insane; it's the society we live in that is insane!
digler990 12y ago
> you could design a house that would not easily be 'breached' Most US homes have city and county building codes that regulate the number and height of windows, ostensibly for "fire rescue". Maybe you could evade this by buying a rural plot of land that is free of municipal code, but in that case you wouldn't need super security, just a long driveway with pressure sensors that alert you to anyone approaching.
- mixmax 12y ago
  boat windows are a good idea here. Typically they have a welded metal or aluminium frame and an inset of 6mm hardened glass. Some have a sandwich of several layers of lexan glued together. They come in all shapes and sizes, and can be custommade relatively cheaply. You can get ones that open from the inside. They have to be sturdy since at sea they need to be able to withstand a wave of several tons of water coming at them at full speed. Good luck getting through that.
  - ryanmarsh 12y ago
    You wanna get shot in a raid? Try to going through a window. Go watch the Waco ATF raid footage.
  - PhantomGremlin 12y ago
    One easy retrofit solution (though certainly not anywhere as secure as Lexan) is 3m Window Film. This will probably be good enough to keep flashbangs from being fired thru windows. http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/Window_Film/Solutions/Markets-Products/Residential/Safety-Security_Window_Films/ http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/Window_Film/Solu... The ad copy on that page reads: Because these films help hold the glass together, a stronger barrier is created, slowing down criminals to the point where they may choose to flee for an easier target. Sadly, there's often only a subtle difference between a violent criminal and a SWAT team member. The personality types are often quite similar.
biot 12y ago
Just keep in mind that such a house's protection against easy breaches by police (who, in a no-knock scenario, will be equipped for a breach) also prevents easy breaches by ambulance or fire crews. What if you're only able to call for help but you are incapacitated prior to being able to unlock your fortress?
- ryanmarsh 12y ago
  So I guess that means no claymores planted in the yard. Dang. Seriously though, this is a real concern. How do you build a house that is raid proof but that can be accessed by the fire dept? Maybe we should push the context of the problem back a little bit and ask: how do we de-escalate the police state in the U.S.?
  - fencepost 12y ago
    De-escalation is part of why I'd want that kind of camera system - the signs would serve a dual purpose, A) notifying and hopefully at least heavily clouding charges of "he had no legal right to record, we weren't in a public place, charge him with wiretapping" (I'm in Illinois which is an all-party-consent state) and B) putting police on notice that even if they aren't using body cameras (or they're prone to "malfunction") there will still be recordings. Given the apparent change in officer behavior that accompanies body camera use, perhaps having explicitly noted video and audio surveillance disclosed in advance will serve a similar purpose.
    - jbinto 12y ago
      > I'm in Illinois which is an all-party-consent state It looks like this was overturned in 2014. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illinois_wiretapping_law#Court_proceedings http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illinois_wiretapping_law#Court_... http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/03/20/illinois-supreme-court-strikes-down-broad-ban-on-audiorecording-conversations/ http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014... n.b. I learned about this in a recent episode of "The Good Wife". I am Canadian.

ryanmarsh 12y ago

It really is. It works most of the time for the same reason it works in war, you have the element of surprise. In a population of ordinary citizens you aren't likely to encounter much trouble kicking in doors at 2am. It works for criminals after all. But things are a little different in the US because there are lots of keyed-up gun owning vets that spent most of their military service conducting urban warfare. Put simply, you cannot just roll up on me like that. Just knock on the door politely and I'll come out and chat. Kick in my door like a home-invasion robbery and I'll follow my training without thought.

samspot 12y ago
Yeah, unless you are a wanted criminal, there is no reason to assume the people breaking into your house are the police. I didn't even know they did that before reading the flashbang article a few weeks ago: https://www.propublica.org/article/flashbangs https://www.propublica.org/article/flashbangs