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It's probably my PTSD but my biggest fear is getting raided by SWAT in a "wrong house" mixup or for some other stupid reason. In such an instance I would likely

It's probably my PTSD but my biggest fear is getting raided by SWAT in a "wrong house" mixup or for some other stupid reason. In such an instance I would likely kill one or more of them. I have a family in my house that could be injured by them in the process. I've always wanted a camera system that had remote encrypted storage so I could prove the truth in court. I just re-read this comment and I'm clearly nuts.

bithush 12y ago
If you live in a "no knock" state you are not nuts at all. I am from the UK and think the whole no knock thing is insane when everyone has easy access to guns (both legally and illegally). It is just asking for people to die.
- ChuckMcM 12y ago
  Its for this reason I would seriously consider making my house 'no knock' safe if I were to build it from scratch. I worry about the conversation starting with "get down police!" rather than something more civil. And it seems you could design a house that would not easily be 'breached' which would mean any unplanned entry would take time and be noisy. Allowing you to start a dialog with the people trying to come in before anyone is in danger of being shot.
  - jacquesm 12y ago
    Living in a bunker gets old pretty quickly. No windows that can open either.
    - ryanmarsh 12y ago
      Windows aren't really the problem. Windows are dangerous to be near for the raiding party. To raid proof a dwelling you need things that slow down entry, things that trip, bright lights or sounds that let a raiding party know they've lost the element of surprise, and some form of early warning before someone has reached a breach point such as a door.
  - ryanmarsh 12y ago
    Were I to build a new house, yes, I've planned to do this. Jesus I sound nuttier by the minute.
    - robertfw 12y ago
      You're not insane; it's the society we live in that is insane!
  - digler990 12y ago
    > you could design a house that would not easily be 'breached' Most US homes have city and county building codes that regulate the number and height of windows, ostensibly for "fire rescue". Maybe you could evade this by buying a rural plot of land that is free of municipal code, but in that case you wouldn't need super security, just a long driveway with pressure sensors that alert you to anyone approaching.
    - mixmax 12y ago
      boat windows are a good idea here. Typically they have a welded metal or aluminium frame and an inset of 6mm hardened glass. Some have a sandwich of several layers of lexan glued together. They come in all shapes and sizes, and can be custommade relatively cheaply. You can get ones that open from the inside. They have to be sturdy since at sea they need to be able to withstand a wave of several tons of water coming at them at full speed. Good luck getting through that.
      - ryanmarsh 12y ago
        You wanna get shot in a raid? Try to going through a window. Go watch the Waco ATF raid footage.
      - PhantomGremlin 12y ago
        One easy retrofit solution (though certainly not anywhere as secure as Lexan) is 3m Window Film. This will probably be good enough to keep flashbangs from being fired thru windows. http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/Window_Film/Solutions/Markets-Products/Residential/Safety-Security_Window_Films/ http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/Window_Film/Solu... The ad copy on that page reads: Because these films help hold the glass together, a stronger barrier is created, slowing down criminals to the point where they may choose to flee for an easier target. Sadly, there's often only a subtle difference between a violent criminal and a SWAT team member. The personality types are often quite similar.
  - biot 12y ago
    Just keep in mind that such a house's protection against easy breaches by police (who, in a no-knock scenario, will be equipped for a breach) also prevents easy breaches by ambulance or fire crews. What if you're only able to call for help but you are incapacitated prior to being able to unlock your fortress?
    - ryanmarsh 12y ago
      So I guess that means no claymores planted in the yard. Dang. Seriously though, this is a real concern. How do you build a house that is raid proof but that can be accessed by the fire dept? Maybe we should push the context of the problem back a little bit and ask: how do we de-escalate the police state in the U.S.?
      - fencepost 12y ago
        De-escalation is part of why I'd want that kind of camera system - the signs would serve a dual purpose, A) notifying and hopefully at least heavily clouding charges of "he had no legal right to record, we weren't in a public place, charge him with wiretapping" (I'm in Illinois which is an all-party-consent state) and B) putting police on notice that even if they aren't using body cameras (or they're prone to "malfunction") there will still be recordings. Given the apparent change in officer behavior that accompanies body camera use, perhaps having explicitly noted video and audio surveillance disclosed in advance will serve a similar purpose.
        jbinto 12y ago
        > I'm in Illinois which is an all-party-consent state It looks like this was overturned in 2014. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illinois_wiretapping_law#Court_proceedings http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illinois_wiretapping_law#Court_... http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/03/20/illinois-supreme-court-strikes-down-broad-ban-on-audiorecording-conversations/ http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014... n.b. I learned about this in a recent episode of "The Good Wife". I am Canadian.
- ryanmarsh 12y ago
  It really is. It works most of the time for the same reason it works in war, you have the element of surprise. In a population of ordinary citizens you aren't likely to encounter much trouble kicking in doors at 2am. It works for criminals after all. But things are a little different in the US because there are lots of keyed-up gun owning vets that spent most of their military service conducting urban warfare. Put simply, you cannot just roll up on me like that. Just knock on the door politely and I'll come out and chat. Kick in my door like a home-invasion robbery and I'll follow my training without thought.
  - samspot 12y ago
    Yeah, unless you are a wanted criminal, there is no reason to assume the people breaking into your house are the police. I didn't even know they did that before reading the flashbang article a few weeks ago: https://www.propublica.org/article/flashbangs https://www.propublica.org/article/flashbangs
JonFish85 12y ago
"In such an instance I would likely kill one or more of them" You may want to consider how to react differently in such a situation. That's definitely a fight you can't win, and indeed would probably lead to causing your loved ones more pain than it's worth. It's probably best to comply with order in the heat of the moment and later fight it in court. The outcome will be much, much better, I promise.
- lhc- 12y ago
  I think the fear is less "f*ck the police" here, and more "an unknown entity is breaking into my house", which is a pretty justifiable response. If he knew it was the police, I don't think the first reaction would be to shoot them.
- mynameisvlad 12y ago
  He's clearly thought about it, he's just saying that due to (I assume) his military background and PTSD, the most likely outcome would be that he kills one of them. It's very hard to not react in a particular way when it's what was ingrained as your method of survival in the field.
  - ryanmarsh 12y ago
    Training is forgotten with time. Life experiences seared into your lizard brain never go away. On that note The Power of Habit by Charles Duhigg is a great book on the science of how this works.
    - fencepost 12y ago
      I'll second Scott's question about whether you've considered keeping your gun outside the house. Since you know that you react like that and are hopefully doing what you can to change that even if the VA is a mess, it seems to me that the responsible thing to do is also to preemptively mitigate the impact of those reactions, since you already know that your decision-making in the heat of the moment is going to be somewhat hard-wired in a bad direction by past experience. Hell, even just keeping the guns in a gun safe well away from the bedroom would make a big difference. You with a gun become a target, do anything you can to avoid being that target because dead men can't use the video evidence in court.
Recoil42 12y ago
Just curious, what is the root event (events?) of your PTSD?
- ryanmarsh 12y ago
  IEDs, raids, ambushes
c22 12y ago
I somehow doubt proving your innocence will be your (or your surviving family's) primary concern if you kill one or more raiding swat members.
- ryanmarsh 12y ago
  I meant in the event I survive.
angersock 12y ago
Had HPD stack up on an apartment I used to live at while I was gone...knocked once, roommate came out, and he managed to talk them out of raiding us. They really wanted the apartment down from us, which had been the alleged source of a bunch of burglaries in our complex. If the roommate had had headphones on (was a metalhead and a gamer), things could've gone differently. We would've at least been out a door. EDIT: Fun fact--if I remember correctly, the first (maybe only?) confirmed kill with a P90 was by HPD SWAT.
- ryanmarsh 12y ago
  HPD and HCSD, there's a reason they call Harris County the "hangin' county". Someone at ACLU told me Harris County Sheriffs Dept. has more shooting deaths per violent arrest than any other police force in the country. Edit: "stack up" heh, fellow major league door kicker?
  - angersock 12y ago
    "You can beat the rap, but you can't beat the ride." EDIT: No vocational door-kicking experience. :|
- sukilot 12y ago
  Wow. The cops raided the victim's home in a burglary investigation? Way to completely miss the point, cops.
sukilot 12y ago
You do not possess enough legal firepower, and probably don't have enough practice wih your equipment, to likely kill a member of a SWAT team and "hurt" yourself.

bithush 12y ago

If you live in a "no knock" state you are not nuts at all. I am from the UK and think the whole no knock thing is insane when everyone has easy access to guns (both legally and illegally). It is just asking for people to die.

ChuckMcM 12y ago
Its for this reason I would seriously consider making my house 'no knock' safe if I were to build it from scratch. I worry about the conversation starting with "get down police!" rather than something more civil. And it seems you could design a house that would not easily be 'breached' which would mean any unplanned entry would take time and be noisy. Allowing you to start a dialog with the people trying to come in before anyone is in danger of being shot.
- jacquesm 12y ago
  Living in a bunker gets old pretty quickly. No windows that can open either.
  - ryanmarsh 12y ago
    Windows aren't really the problem. Windows are dangerous to be near for the raiding party. To raid proof a dwelling you need things that slow down entry, things that trip, bright lights or sounds that let a raiding party know they've lost the element of surprise, and some form of early warning before someone has reached a breach point such as a door.
- ryanmarsh 12y ago
  Were I to build a new house, yes, I've planned to do this. Jesus I sound nuttier by the minute.
  - robertfw 12y ago
    You're not insane; it's the society we live in that is insane!
- digler990 12y ago
  > you could design a house that would not easily be 'breached' Most US homes have city and county building codes that regulate the number and height of windows, ostensibly for "fire rescue". Maybe you could evade this by buying a rural plot of land that is free of municipal code, but in that case you wouldn't need super security, just a long driveway with pressure sensors that alert you to anyone approaching.
  - mixmax 12y ago
    boat windows are a good idea here. Typically they have a welded metal or aluminium frame and an inset of 6mm hardened glass. Some have a sandwich of several layers of lexan glued together. They come in all shapes and sizes, and can be custommade relatively cheaply. You can get ones that open from the inside. They have to be sturdy since at sea they need to be able to withstand a wave of several tons of water coming at them at full speed. Good luck getting through that.
    - ryanmarsh 12y ago
      You wanna get shot in a raid? Try to going through a window. Go watch the Waco ATF raid footage.
    - PhantomGremlin 12y ago
      One easy retrofit solution (though certainly not anywhere as secure as Lexan) is 3m Window Film. This will probably be good enough to keep flashbangs from being fired thru windows. http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/Window_Film/Solutions/Markets-Products/Residential/Safety-Security_Window_Films/ http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/Window_Film/Solu... The ad copy on that page reads: Because these films help hold the glass together, a stronger barrier is created, slowing down criminals to the point where they may choose to flee for an easier target. Sadly, there's often only a subtle difference between a violent criminal and a SWAT team member. The personality types are often quite similar.
- biot 12y ago
  Just keep in mind that such a house's protection against easy breaches by police (who, in a no-knock scenario, will be equipped for a breach) also prevents easy breaches by ambulance or fire crews. What if you're only able to call for help but you are incapacitated prior to being able to unlock your fortress?
  - ryanmarsh 12y ago
    So I guess that means no claymores planted in the yard. Dang. Seriously though, this is a real concern. How do you build a house that is raid proof but that can be accessed by the fire dept? Maybe we should push the context of the problem back a little bit and ask: how do we de-escalate the police state in the U.S.?
    - fencepost 12y ago
      De-escalation is part of why I'd want that kind of camera system - the signs would serve a dual purpose, A) notifying and hopefully at least heavily clouding charges of "he had no legal right to record, we weren't in a public place, charge him with wiretapping" (I'm in Illinois which is an all-party-consent state) and B) putting police on notice that even if they aren't using body cameras (or they're prone to "malfunction") there will still be recordings. Given the apparent change in officer behavior that accompanies body camera use, perhaps having explicitly noted video and audio surveillance disclosed in advance will serve a similar purpose.
      - jbinto 12y ago
        > I'm in Illinois which is an all-party-consent state It looks like this was overturned in 2014. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illinois_wiretapping_law#Court_proceedings http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illinois_wiretapping_law#Court_... http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/03/20/illinois-supreme-court-strikes-down-broad-ban-on-audiorecording-conversations/ http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014... n.b. I learned about this in a recent episode of "The Good Wife". I am Canadian.
ryanmarsh 12y ago
It really is. It works most of the time for the same reason it works in war, you have the element of surprise. In a population of ordinary citizens you aren't likely to encounter much trouble kicking in doors at 2am. It works for criminals after all. But things are a little different in the US because there are lots of keyed-up gun owning vets that spent most of their military service conducting urban warfare. Put simply, you cannot just roll up on me like that. Just knock on the door politely and I'll come out and chat. Kick in my door like a home-invasion robbery and I'll follow my training without thought.
- samspot 12y ago
  Yeah, unless you are a wanted criminal, there is no reason to assume the people breaking into your house are the police. I didn't even know they did that before reading the flashbang article a few weeks ago: https://www.propublica.org/article/flashbangs https://www.propublica.org/article/flashbangs

JonFish85 12y ago

"In such an instance I would likely kill one or more of them" You may want to consider how to react differently in such a situation. That's definitely a fight you can't win, and indeed would probably lead to causing your loved ones more pain than it's worth. It's probably best to comply with order in the heat of the moment and later fight it in court. The outcome will be much, much better, I promise.

lhc- 12y ago
I think the fear is less "f*ck the police" here, and more "an unknown entity is breaking into my house", which is a pretty justifiable response. If he knew it was the police, I don't think the first reaction would be to shoot them.
mynameisvlad 12y ago
He's clearly thought about it, he's just saying that due to (I assume) his military background and PTSD, the most likely outcome would be that he kills one of them. It's very hard to not react in a particular way when it's what was ingrained as your method of survival in the field.
- ryanmarsh 12y ago
  Training is forgotten with time. Life experiences seared into your lizard brain never go away. On that note The Power of Habit by Charles Duhigg is a great book on the science of how this works.
  - fencepost 12y ago
    I'll second Scott's question about whether you've considered keeping your gun outside the house. Since you know that you react like that and are hopefully doing what you can to change that even if the VA is a mess, it seems to me that the responsible thing to do is also to preemptively mitigate the impact of those reactions, since you already know that your decision-making in the heat of the moment is going to be somewhat hard-wired in a bad direction by past experience. Hell, even just keeping the guns in a gun safe well away from the bedroom would make a big difference. You with a gun become a target, do anything you can to avoid being that target because dead men can't use the video evidence in court.

Recoil42 12y ago

Just curious, what is the root event (events?) of your PTSD?

ryanmarsh 12y ago
IEDs, raids, ambushes

c22 12y ago

I somehow doubt proving your innocence will be your (or your surviving family's) primary concern if you kill one or more raiding swat members.

ryanmarsh 12y ago
I meant in the event I survive.

angersock 12y ago

Had HPD stack up on an apartment I used to live at while I was gone...knocked once, roommate came out, and he managed to talk them out of raiding us. They really wanted the apartment down from us, which had been the alleged source of a bunch of burglaries in our complex. If the roommate had had headphones on (was a metalhead and a gamer), things could've gone differently. We would've at least been out a door. EDIT: Fun fact--if I remember correctly, the first (maybe only?) confirmed kill with a P90 was by HPD SWAT.

ryanmarsh 12y ago
HPD and HCSD, there's a reason they call Harris County the "hangin' county". Someone at ACLU told me Harris County Sheriffs Dept. has more shooting deaths per violent arrest than any other police force in the country. Edit: "stack up" heh, fellow major league door kicker?
- angersock 12y ago
  "You can beat the rap, but you can't beat the ride." EDIT: No vocational door-kicking experience. :|
sukilot 12y ago
Wow. The cops raided the victim's home in a burglary investigation? Way to completely miss the point, cops.

sukilot 12y ago

You do not possess enough legal firepower, and probably don't have enough practice wih your equipment, to likely kill a member of a SWAT team and "hurt" yourself.