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By that logic every single case that the FBI prosecutes is fruit of the poison tree. I am in no way in support of NSA activities, but in order to make your clai

By that logic every single case that the FBI prosecutes is fruit of the poison tree. I am in no way in support of NSA activities, but in order to make your claim you need some proof unfortunately. If it were ever proven that the FBI regularly uses NSA warantless wiretaps to aid in convictions of US citizens there will be many cases overturned.

mentat 12y ago
Unfortunately that proof is made systematically unavailable, hence the injustice.
FeeTinesAMady 12y ago
Every case prosecuted by the FBI ever since parallel construction started is fruit of the poison tree.
- FeeTinesAMady 12y ago
  To downvoters: the truth hurts, doesn't it?
  - CamperBob2 12y ago
    I'd rather they downvote me, than try to blackmail me and drive me to suicide like they've attempted to do in the past with other US citizens. (Oops, now I'm conflating the NSA and the FBI -- I'm sure someone from their fan club will be along to remind me of that important distinction.) It's as if they honestly don't understand why it's their responsibility to show they've reformed, and not our responsibility to show that they haven't. Life is just one big TV script to these people. Oh, well... if they had enough imagination to contemplate what will happen when the next J. Edgar Hoover gains "Total Information Awareness," they'd be even more dangerous.
CamperBob2 12y ago
Sorry, but on this topic, the Snowden disclosures decisively shift the burden of proof away from me. Read them, then moderate.
- csandreasen 12y ago
  Two points: 1) the parallel construction headlines were not from the Snowden disclosures, they were from documents independently obtained by Reuters[1]. 2) This is what the original article actually had to say about NSA involvement in parallel construction (emphasis mine): "Today, the SOD offers at least three services to federal, state and local law enforcement agents: coordinating international investigations such as the Bout case; distributing tips from overseas NSA intercepts, informants, foreign law enforcement partners and domestic wiretaps; and circulating tips from a massive database known as DICE." ... "Wiretap tips forwarded by the SOD usually come from foreign governments, U.S. intelligence agencies or court-authorized domestic phone recordings. Because warrantless eavesdropping on Americans is illegal, tips from intelligence agencies are generally not forwarded to the SOD until a caller's citizenship can be verified, according to one senior law enforcement official and one former U.S. military intelligence analyst." [1] http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSBRE97409R20130805?irpc=932 http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSBRE97409R20130805?irpc...
  - CamperBob2 12y ago
    Two points: 1) the parallel construction headlines were not from the Snowden disclosures, they were from documents independently obtained by Reuters[1]. Ah, I stand corrected, thanks. I didn't know that. It's not the least bit material, but I'll be careful not to credit/blame Snowden for bringing us this little tidbit of knowledge in the future. 2) This is what the original article actually had to say about NSA involvement in parallel construction (emphasis mine): "Today, the SOD offers at least three services to federal, state and local law enforcement agents: coordinating international investigations such as the Bout case; distributing tips from overseas NSA intercepts, informants, foreign law enforcement partners and domestic wiretaps; and circulating tips from a massive database known as DICE." Only the article's second sentence matters, as far as I'm concerned: Although these cases rarely involve national security issues, documents reviewed by Reuters show that law enforcement agents have been directed to conceal how such investigations (of American citizens) truly begin - not only from defense lawyers but also sometimes from prosecutors and judges. And with respect to "Wiretap tips forwarded by the SOD usually come from foreign governments, U.S. intelligence agencies or court-authorized domestic phone recordings. Because warrantless eavesdropping on Americans is illegal, tips from intelligence agencies are generally not forwarded to the SOD until a caller's citizenship can be verified, according to one senior law enforcement official and one former U.S. military intelligence analyst." These people break countless laws and tell countless lies every day, with total impunity even when said lies are told before Congress. Excuse me if I don't believe "one senior law enforcement official and one former intelligence analyst" for one minute. Give me one reason to.

mentat 12y ago

Unfortunately that proof is made systematically unavailable, hence the injustice.

FeeTinesAMady 12y ago

Every case prosecuted by the FBI ever since parallel construction started is fruit of the poison tree.

FeeTinesAMady 12y ago
To downvoters: the truth hurts, doesn't it?
- CamperBob2 12y ago
  I'd rather they downvote me, than try to blackmail me and drive me to suicide like they've attempted to do in the past with other US citizens. (Oops, now I'm conflating the NSA and the FBI -- I'm sure someone from their fan club will be along to remind me of that important distinction.) It's as if they honestly don't understand why it's their responsibility to show they've reformed, and not our responsibility to show that they haven't. Life is just one big TV script to these people. Oh, well... if they had enough imagination to contemplate what will happen when the next J. Edgar Hoover gains "Total Information Awareness," they'd be even more dangerous.

CamperBob2 12y ago

Sorry, but on this topic, the Snowden disclosures decisively shift the burden of proof away from me. Read them, then moderate.

csandreasen 12y ago
Two points: 1) the parallel construction headlines were not from the Snowden disclosures, they were from documents independently obtained by Reuters[1]. 2) This is what the original article actually had to say about NSA involvement in parallel construction (emphasis mine): "Today, the SOD offers at least three services to federal, state and local law enforcement agents: coordinating international investigations such as the Bout case; distributing tips from overseas NSA intercepts, informants, foreign law enforcement partners and domestic wiretaps; and circulating tips from a massive database known as DICE." ... "Wiretap tips forwarded by the SOD usually come from foreign governments, U.S. intelligence agencies or court-authorized domestic phone recordings. Because warrantless eavesdropping on Americans is illegal, tips from intelligence agencies are generally not forwarded to the SOD until a caller's citizenship can be verified, according to one senior law enforcement official and one former U.S. military intelligence analyst." [1] http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSBRE97409R20130805?irpc=932 http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSBRE97409R20130805?irpc...
- CamperBob2 12y ago
  Two points: 1) the parallel construction headlines were not from the Snowden disclosures, they were from documents independently obtained by Reuters[1]. Ah, I stand corrected, thanks. I didn't know that. It's not the least bit material, but I'll be careful not to credit/blame Snowden for bringing us this little tidbit of knowledge in the future. 2) This is what the original article actually had to say about NSA involvement in parallel construction (emphasis mine): "Today, the SOD offers at least three services to federal, state and local law enforcement agents: coordinating international investigations such as the Bout case; distributing tips from overseas NSA intercepts, informants, foreign law enforcement partners and domestic wiretaps; and circulating tips from a massive database known as DICE." Only the article's second sentence matters, as far as I'm concerned: Although these cases rarely involve national security issues, documents reviewed by Reuters show that law enforcement agents have been directed to conceal how such investigations (of American citizens) truly begin - not only from defense lawyers but also sometimes from prosecutors and judges. And with respect to "Wiretap tips forwarded by the SOD usually come from foreign governments, U.S. intelligence agencies or court-authorized domestic phone recordings. Because warrantless eavesdropping on Americans is illegal, tips from intelligence agencies are generally not forwarded to the SOD until a caller's citizenship can be verified, according to one senior law enforcement official and one former U.S. military intelligence analyst." These people break countless laws and tell countless lies every day, with total impunity even when said lies are told before Congress. Excuse me if I don't believe "one senior law enforcement official and one former intelligence analyst" for one minute. Give me one reason to.