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By lumping them all together, you are implying that fear is a gift. The NPR podcast on the other hand suggests otherwise. SM describes herself to be happy 9 out

By lumping them all together, you are implying that fear is a gift. The NPR podcast on the other hand suggests otherwise. SM describes herself to be happy 9 out of 10 times, and she has no past trauma. Sounds like being fearless is in fact the under-appreciated gift.

vidarh 12y ago
I think you miss the point. She describes herself to be happy 9 out of 10 times because she is also unable to notice the real dangers that fear is there to help us handle. While it may be great to not feel afraid, as the article points out it also leads her to risky behaviour that most healthy persons would avoid.
- jdimov 12y ago
  That's because most healthy people are wrong. There are no risks or dangers worth fearing.
  - vidarh 12y ago
    If you want to stay alive that is blatantly false.
- SafariDevelop 12y ago
  > I think you miss the point. I do get gwern's implication of fear being a gift. His applauding of fear was (presumably) in response to Rachel Feltman's (WashingtonPost's journalist) "a bad thing" appraisal of her lack of fear during those two incidents of being held at knifepoint and those two other incidents of being held at gunpoint. Whereas you completely miss the point I was trying to make. That, it matters not that in her entire lifetime she failed to feel afraid in those four instances (of being held at knifepoint or gunpoint) -- and we do not yet know if she actually handled them intelligently or not (i.e., had the time and energy to think through her responses instead of them being, say, flippantly knee-jerk) -- as they are nothing in the large scheme of an entire of life of being mostly happy. Say, she has lived for some 50 years with this condition, then she has been happy the whole 45 years. An ordinary "healthy person" would have been happy say 25 years with ordinary "healthy" incidents of fear, even trauma, peppered throughout their lifetime. > She describes herself to be happy 9 out of 10 times because she is also unable to notice the real dangers [...] What 'real dangers' are they (other than the four incidences noted above)? > [...] real dangers that fear is there to help us handle. How exactly does fear help you handle 'real dangers'? It seems that SM had no trouble handling those four incidents (of being held at knifepoint or gunpoint) admirably. Most "healthy people" on the other hand would cringe/freeze and even develop "traumas", much less have the energy to think through their responses. > While it may be great to not feel afraid, as the article points out it also leads her to risky behaviour that most healthy persons would avoid. You are merely speculating trying to justify your fear of lack of fear, unless by 'risky behaviour' you only refer to those four incidents (of being held at knifepoint or gunpoint) which this women seems to have handled admirably. Being fearless is indeed under appreciated, even at HN.
gwern 12y ago
She describes herself as happy... and yet somehow has been at gunpoint and knifepoint, both of them multiple times. Most people manage to never have either. This suggests such people have extremely high death rates, and she's just lucky enough to still be around to be studied & interviewed. I don't mind feeling fear occasionally if it helps me live out my natural lifespan.
- SafariDevelop 12y ago
  > She describes herself as happy... and yet somehow has been at gunpoint and knifepoint, both of them multiple times. Most people manage to never have either. This suggests such people have extremely high death rates, and she's just lucky enough to still be around to be studied & interviewed. Could you elaborate on what you are getting at here? Who are these other people, who are likewise fearless (like SM), that are not around to be studied & interviewed? I'm asking if there is an evidenced based count, or if you are purely speculating. Say, if there are 19 other people like SM with no fear, and all 19 of them of died due their frisky disregard for some 'risky behaviour' or 'real danger' ... then, I would accept that fear is indeed a gift. > I don't mind feeling fear occasionally if it helps me live out my natural lifespan. It is not just about the initial feeling of fear -- even then I hardly think fear helps a modern human live out his natural lifespan, as intelligence does a much better job of it -- but also the lack of fear-induced complex emotions, such as separation anxiety. Also it helps to remember that stress (much of it based on fear) shorten the said lifespan tremendously. So you may very well be looking at negligible loss vs substantial profit. It seems to me that SM is the first candidate to demonstrate that fear can be disregarded like an appendage in modern times. All that these scientists could come up with over the years to justify their (and the general public's) fear of lack of fear is those four incidents of being held at knifepoint and gunpoint.
  - gwern 12y ago
    > Who are these other people, who are likewise fearless (like SM), that are not around to be studied & interviewed? People who were not survivors of 4 (and counting) violent assaults with deadly weapons, or of other dangerous behavior which might have not have happened if they had functioning fear. > I'm asking if there is an evidenced based count, or if you are purely speculating. I think the burden of proof here should be on anyone who thinks that lacking fear is great. If so, why does the rare disorder not spread? Why is fear an almost universal and evolutionarily-conserved emotion? Why does the only cited example lead an extraordinarily risky life? (How many white female artists ever get held up like that? Or 4 times? Hell of a coincidence...) > All that these scientists could come up with over the years to justify their (and the general public's) fear of lack of fear is those four incidents of being held at knifepoint and gunpoint. 'All'?

vidarh 12y ago

I think you miss the point. She describes herself to be happy 9 out of 10 times because she is also unable to notice the real dangers that fear is there to help us handle. While it may be great to not feel afraid, as the article points out it also leads her to risky behaviour that most healthy persons would avoid.

jdimov 12y ago
That's because most healthy people are wrong. There are no risks or dangers worth fearing.
- vidarh 12y ago
  If you want to stay alive that is blatantly false.
SafariDevelop 12y ago
> I think you miss the point. I do get gwern's implication of fear being a gift. His applauding of fear was (presumably) in response to Rachel Feltman's (WashingtonPost's journalist) "a bad thing" appraisal of her lack of fear during those two incidents of being held at knifepoint and those two other incidents of being held at gunpoint. Whereas you completely miss the point I was trying to make. That, it matters not that in her entire lifetime she failed to feel afraid in those four instances (of being held at knifepoint or gunpoint) -- and we do not yet know if she actually handled them intelligently or not (i.e., had the time and energy to think through her responses instead of them being, say, flippantly knee-jerk) -- as they are nothing in the large scheme of an entire of life of being mostly happy. Say, she has lived for some 50 years with this condition, then she has been happy the whole 45 years. An ordinary "healthy person" would have been happy say 25 years with ordinary "healthy" incidents of fear, even trauma, peppered throughout their lifetime. > She describes herself to be happy 9 out of 10 times because she is also unable to notice the real dangers [...] What 'real dangers' are they (other than the four incidences noted above)? > [...] real dangers that fear is there to help us handle. How exactly does fear help you handle 'real dangers'? It seems that SM had no trouble handling those four incidents (of being held at knifepoint or gunpoint) admirably. Most "healthy people" on the other hand would cringe/freeze and even develop "traumas", much less have the energy to think through their responses. > While it may be great to not feel afraid, as the article points out it also leads her to risky behaviour that most healthy persons would avoid. You are merely speculating trying to justify your fear of lack of fear, unless by 'risky behaviour' you only refer to those four incidents (of being held at knifepoint or gunpoint) which this women seems to have handled admirably. Being fearless is indeed under appreciated, even at HN.

gwern 12y ago

She describes herself as happy... and yet somehow has been at gunpoint and knifepoint, both of them multiple times. Most people manage to never have either. This suggests such people have extremely high death rates, and she's just lucky enough to still be around to be studied & interviewed. I don't mind feeling fear occasionally if it helps me live out my natural lifespan.

SafariDevelop 12y ago
> She describes herself as happy... and yet somehow has been at gunpoint and knifepoint, both of them multiple times. Most people manage to never have either. This suggests such people have extremely high death rates, and she's just lucky enough to still be around to be studied & interviewed. Could you elaborate on what you are getting at here? Who are these other people, who are likewise fearless (like SM), that are not around to be studied & interviewed? I'm asking if there is an evidenced based count, or if you are purely speculating. Say, if there are 19 other people like SM with no fear, and all 19 of them of died due their frisky disregard for some 'risky behaviour' or 'real danger' ... then, I would accept that fear is indeed a gift. > I don't mind feeling fear occasionally if it helps me live out my natural lifespan. It is not just about the initial feeling of fear -- even then I hardly think fear helps a modern human live out his natural lifespan, as intelligence does a much better job of it -- but also the lack of fear-induced complex emotions, such as separation anxiety. Also it helps to remember that stress (much of it based on fear) shorten the said lifespan tremendously. So you may very well be looking at negligible loss vs substantial profit. It seems to me that SM is the first candidate to demonstrate that fear can be disregarded like an appendage in modern times. All that these scientists could come up with over the years to justify their (and the general public's) fear of lack of fear is those four incidents of being held at knifepoint and gunpoint.
- gwern 12y ago
  > Who are these other people, who are likewise fearless (like SM), that are not around to be studied & interviewed? People who were not survivors of 4 (and counting) violent assaults with deadly weapons, or of other dangerous behavior which might have not have happened if they had functioning fear. > I'm asking if there is an evidenced based count, or if you are purely speculating. I think the burden of proof here should be on anyone who thinks that lacking fear is great. If so, why does the rare disorder not spread? Why is fear an almost universal and evolutionarily-conserved emotion? Why does the only cited example lead an extraordinarily risky life? (How many white female artists ever get held up like that? Or 4 times? Hell of a coincidence...) > All that these scientists could come up with over the years to justify their (and the general public's) fear of lack of fear is those four incidents of being held at knifepoint and gunpoint. 'All'?