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I don't really feel like Metro is going towards OS X at all, they seem to be strongly going their own way. >Outside of the "real" shell the entire UI doesn't s

I don't really feel like Metro is going towards OS X at all, they seem to be strongly going their own way. >Outside of the "real" shell the entire UI doesn't seem to be designed for software professionals Interesting, any specific examples? I'm genuinely curious. For me, the more I use OSX, the more I'm frustrated with Windows. The one thing I do miss from Windows is better full screen support. Yosemite kinda helped with that (but it's still kinda clunky). Other than that, I feel like there's a little more logic behind OSX with common operations, off the top of my head: Option/alt to modify existing commands. The keyboard kungfu on OSX seems easier on the hands, too, since the combos typically rely on thumb keys vs a Windows pinky reach of Ctrl. Especially noticeable because the thumbs seem pretty underutilized vs pinkies, which already have plenty of keyboard duties. File renaming: "Enter" to rename a file vs "F2" (something I happily accepted as random dogma, but now it's "??") Folder/file nav: unified drill down in the file browser (cmd+up/down to navigate levels, with the file level simply opening the file, vs arrow keys, then enter to open) Window management: being able to close all windows without exiting the app itself (handy when I'm clearing clutter but I don't want to pay a cost for restarting a big application, or if I simply just didn't realize it was the last window when I closed it, and now I have to relaunch the application) *Scrolling: Being able to scroll any window whether or not it's the active application, so long as the mouse cursor is hovering over content. Not to say everything is more logical, just common things I do. The screen capture shortcut is totally bizarre to me, I have to google it every time.

wvenable 12y ago
> don't really feel like Metro is going towards OS X at all, they seem to be strongly going their own way. I actually meant the desktop parts, no metro. For example, the taskbar is becoming more dock-like in every release. > Interesting, any specific examples? I'm genuinely curious. It's somewhat hard to nail down. I find it much more mouse heavy. I find the window management to be annoying; I prefer full-screen apps with dockable panels to the mess of random windows normally found in OS X apps. I definitely feel having one menu bar WAY at the top of a single screen to be insane. I'm sitting in front of 2 24" monitors kinda makes OS X seem a bit underwhelming. On Windows, I have two task bars showing different tasks for each window. Two start menus (thanks Classicshell) and my apps have their own menus. It seems like the apps have a lot of style-over-substance going on. Code editors with pop-out drawers which are both stupid and a waste of pixels. > File renaming: "Enter" to rename a file vs "F2" (something I happily accepted as random dogma, but now it's "??") F2 works but I never use it. I always just click twice to rename. > Window management: being able to close all windows without exiting the app itself (handy when I'm clearing clutter but I don't want to pay a cost for restarting a big application, or if I simply just didn't realize it was the last window when I closed it, and now I have to relaunch the application) Most Windows applications are MDI or tabbed so this seems like less of issue. Even a lot of OS X apps are tabbed. I actually hate what you like: nothing but the menu bar open indicating that the app is in focus and running. I've been confused by that a few times. > Scrolling: Being able to scroll any window whether or not it's the active application, so long as the mouse cursor is hovering over content. Yeah, you got me there. For the longest time, OS X was missing some really obvious stuff though. Like resizing windows from any corner! I found nothing more annoying than having to move a window around to then resize it. > Not to say everything is more logical, just common things I do. The screen capture shortcut is totally bizarre to me, I have to google it every time. SHIFT-PRNTSCN? It's got a labeled key on the keyboard!
- moogleii 12y ago
  Ha, looks like my opinions hurt someone's feelings and got downvoted. Meh. >SHIFT-PRNTSCN? It's got a labeled key on the keyboard! Right. I meant it was less logical on OSX. Cmd-shift-3? Bizarre. And yeah, I had to google it again. http://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201361 http://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201361 >I actually hate what you like: nothing but the menu bar open indicating that the app is in focus and running. I've been confused by that a few times. Haha, I'm glad we can civilly hate each other's preferences. To me, repeating the menu strip for each window is a waste of real-estate, but i'm a huge desktop space whore. I don't need "File, Edit, etc" on every program window. I know it's there, so I prefer it to be in a common area. Actually, I find myself getting confused the other way around. In Windows, if I step away from my desk, and come back, it's not clear to me which program is currently active because they're all showing their menu bars just like all the other programs (now that we discuss it, I feel like the root of our different workflows has as lot to do with the fact that I prefer to autohide my taskbars). This combined with the unified window/program closing has lead to gnashing of teeth more than once. >Most Windows applications are MDI or tabbed so this seems like less of issue.Even a lot of OS X apps are tabbed. I appreciate the shift with some programs, but it doesn't seem as prevalent as I feel it should be, or we're not talking about the same thing. IE and Office are definitely guilty of this. Ctrl+w your tabs enough, and it'll simply close out the program. Or if you choose to X out your windows via mouse, if it's the last window, it will exit out the program. "Window" and "program" seem to be synonymous, so this requires I do a time-wasting check whether it's the last instance or not. Whereas in OSX, exiting the program is a discrete cmd+q vs closing a window (cmd+w). As long as those two remain intertwined concepts in Windows, it's going to feel less logical to me (in my opinion of course). So far, I feel pretty keyboard-warrior-y just as much as I was on Windows. Which probably comes back to workflows. As you pointed out, you use the mouse to rename files, whereas I don't. I figure if I'm renaming a file, I need to type a new name, so my hands can be in the classic "home" position instead of moving around to the mouse or F2. I can see your point about the taskbar, but after a month of use (which admittedly was painful), I honestly stopped missing it. The OS X dock does show what apps are open as well with a lit up effect. Though in both OSes, I end up autohiding them. And worst case scenario, the OS X version of aero tab/Winkey+tab groups together all your active windows by program (though the feature kind of chugged when it first released, but I'd argue aero tab was pretty clunky on older machines when it first came out as well). >For the longest time, OS X was missing some really obvious stuff though. Like resizing windows from any corner! So true. And they finally ditched the bizarre "green" button behavior.
WorldWideWayne 12y ago
Here are some more examples of OS X UI deficiencies compared to Windows: - Keyboard acceleration for application menus is more consistent and robust under Windows. Press Alt + the underlined letter of any menu to activate it and then hunt around using the arrow keys. Press underlined letter of menu item to activate it. No memorizing arcane shortcuts. - Windows' Taskbar is much, much more flexible than OS X's Dock because it does everything the Dock does in it's default mode and it's got other modes that the Dock does not such as having one "entry per window" instead of one "entry per application that displays a list of windows when clicked". I like entry per window mode. The Taskbar is also highly customizable via something like 7+ taskbar tweaker where you can make "taskbar entries" act like browser tabs (middle click to close). Apple never gives anyone access to the proper APIs to customize the Dock. Developers can't even change NSScreen.visibleFrame so even if you wanted to replace the Dock you couldn't do it properly and windows end up behind your replacement (a bug all dock replacement software shares). - Apple seems to prefer buttons that have icons with no labels everywhere. Also, they seem to like little tiny buttons for things like Add/Delete an item in a list, where a Windows app would have a nice big button with an icon and a label. Windows is just more utilitarian over all and Microsoft generally seems to value function over style, which matches my own preferences. - The Windows Explorer is much more flexible and extensible than the OS X Finder. Extending the Explorer context menu is a matter of course on Windows. There's a very robust API for it. Overall, the Finder is vastly inferior to Explorer which is also easier to navigate with a keyboard. - Save/Open dialogs in OS X are limited. One example: I go to save a file and create a folder. Ooops, I want to delete that folder but I can't do it from the dialog, I have to go and open a Finder instance. Windows generally lets you do anything in an Open/Save dialog that you can do from a Windows Explorer instance. There's a plugin for OS X that attempts to fix some of these issues called "Default Folder X". - Display management: OS X doesn't have handy features to quickly turn off external displays like Windows where I just hit Win+P. If I want to get rid of a monitor in OS X I have to turn it off or unplug the video cable. Maybe in Yosemite they added the ability to disable a monitor via control panel. OS X also wants to go to sleep if I close a Macbook/Pro lid, even if an external monitor is plugged in.
- ANTSANTS 12y ago
  >Save/Open dialogs in OS X are limited. One example: I go to save a file and create a folder. Ooops, I want to delete that folder but I can't do it from the dialog, I have to go and open a Finder instance. Windows generally lets you do anything in an Open/Save dialog that you can do from a Windows Explorer instance. There's a plugin for OS X that attempts to fix some of these issues called "Default Folder X". This was also a great annoyance for me on Linux (or more specifically, with the GTK file save/open dialog).

wvenable 12y ago

> don't really feel like Metro is going towards OS X at all, they seem to be strongly going their own way. I actually meant the desktop parts, no metro. For example, the taskbar is becoming more dock-like in every release. > Interesting, any specific examples? I'm genuinely curious. It's somewhat hard to nail down. I find it much more mouse heavy. I find the window management to be annoying; I prefer full-screen apps with dockable panels to the mess of random windows normally found in OS X apps. I definitely feel having one menu bar WAY at the top of a single screen to be insane. I'm sitting in front of 2 24" monitors kinda makes OS X seem a bit underwhelming. On Windows, I have two task bars showing different tasks for each window. Two start menus (thanks Classicshell) and my apps have their own menus. It seems like the apps have a lot of style-over-substance going on. Code editors with pop-out drawers which are both stupid and a waste of pixels. > File renaming: "Enter" to rename a file vs "F2" (something I happily accepted as random dogma, but now it's "??") F2 works but I never use it. I always just click twice to rename. > Window management: being able to close all windows without exiting the app itself (handy when I'm clearing clutter but I don't want to pay a cost for restarting a big application, or if I simply just didn't realize it was the last window when I closed it, and now I have to relaunch the application) Most Windows applications are MDI or tabbed so this seems like less of issue. Even a lot of OS X apps are tabbed. I actually hate what you like: nothing but the menu bar open indicating that the app is in focus and running. I've been confused by that a few times. > Scrolling: Being able to scroll any window whether or not it's the active application, so long as the mouse cursor is hovering over content. Yeah, you got me there. For the longest time, OS X was missing some really obvious stuff though. Like resizing windows from any corner! I found nothing more annoying than having to move a window around to then resize it. > Not to say everything is more logical, just common things I do. The screen capture shortcut is totally bizarre to me, I have to google it every time. SHIFT-PRNTSCN? It's got a labeled key on the keyboard!

moogleii 12y ago
Ha, looks like my opinions hurt someone's feelings and got downvoted. Meh. >SHIFT-PRNTSCN? It's got a labeled key on the keyboard! Right. I meant it was less logical on OSX. Cmd-shift-3? Bizarre. And yeah, I had to google it again. http://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201361 http://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201361 >I actually hate what you like: nothing but the menu bar open indicating that the app is in focus and running. I've been confused by that a few times. Haha, I'm glad we can civilly hate each other's preferences. To me, repeating the menu strip for each window is a waste of real-estate, but i'm a huge desktop space whore. I don't need "File, Edit, etc" on every program window. I know it's there, so I prefer it to be in a common area. Actually, I find myself getting confused the other way around. In Windows, if I step away from my desk, and come back, it's not clear to me which program is currently active because they're all showing their menu bars just like all the other programs (now that we discuss it, I feel like the root of our different workflows has as lot to do with the fact that I prefer to autohide my taskbars). This combined with the unified window/program closing has lead to gnashing of teeth more than once. >Most Windows applications are MDI or tabbed so this seems like less of issue.Even a lot of OS X apps are tabbed. I appreciate the shift with some programs, but it doesn't seem as prevalent as I feel it should be, or we're not talking about the same thing. IE and Office are definitely guilty of this. Ctrl+w your tabs enough, and it'll simply close out the program. Or if you choose to X out your windows via mouse, if it's the last window, it will exit out the program. "Window" and "program" seem to be synonymous, so this requires I do a time-wasting check whether it's the last instance or not. Whereas in OSX, exiting the program is a discrete cmd+q vs closing a window (cmd+w). As long as those two remain intertwined concepts in Windows, it's going to feel less logical to me (in my opinion of course). So far, I feel pretty keyboard-warrior-y just as much as I was on Windows. Which probably comes back to workflows. As you pointed out, you use the mouse to rename files, whereas I don't. I figure if I'm renaming a file, I need to type a new name, so my hands can be in the classic "home" position instead of moving around to the mouse or F2. I can see your point about the taskbar, but after a month of use (which admittedly was painful), I honestly stopped missing it. The OS X dock does show what apps are open as well with a lit up effect. Though in both OSes, I end up autohiding them. And worst case scenario, the OS X version of aero tab/Winkey+tab groups together all your active windows by program (though the feature kind of chugged when it first released, but I'd argue aero tab was pretty clunky on older machines when it first came out as well). >For the longest time, OS X was missing some really obvious stuff though. Like resizing windows from any corner! So true. And they finally ditched the bizarre "green" button behavior.

WorldWideWayne 12y ago

Here are some more examples of OS X UI deficiencies compared to Windows: - Keyboard acceleration for application menus is more consistent and robust under Windows. Press Alt + the underlined letter of any menu to activate it and then hunt around using the arrow keys. Press underlined letter of menu item to activate it. No memorizing arcane shortcuts. - Windows' Taskbar is much, much more flexible than OS X's Dock because it does everything the Dock does in it's default mode and it's got other modes that the Dock does not such as having one "entry per window" instead of one "entry per application that displays a list of windows when clicked". I like entry per window mode. The Taskbar is also highly customizable via something like 7+ taskbar tweaker where you can make "taskbar entries" act like browser tabs (middle click to close). Apple never gives anyone access to the proper APIs to customize the Dock. Developers can't even change NSScreen.visibleFrame so even if you wanted to replace the Dock you couldn't do it properly and windows end up behind your replacement (a bug all dock replacement software shares). - Apple seems to prefer buttons that have icons with no labels everywhere. Also, they seem to like little tiny buttons for things like Add/Delete an item in a list, where a Windows app would have a nice big button with an icon and a label. Windows is just more utilitarian over all and Microsoft generally seems to value function over style, which matches my own preferences. - The Windows Explorer is much more flexible and extensible than the OS X Finder. Extending the Explorer context menu is a matter of course on Windows. There's a very robust API for it. Overall, the Finder is vastly inferior to Explorer which is also easier to navigate with a keyboard. - Save/Open dialogs in OS X are limited. One example: I go to save a file and create a folder. Ooops, I want to delete that folder but I can't do it from the dialog, I have to go and open a Finder instance. Windows generally lets you do anything in an Open/Save dialog that you can do from a Windows Explorer instance. There's a plugin for OS X that attempts to fix some of these issues called "Default Folder X". - Display management: OS X doesn't have handy features to quickly turn off external displays like Windows where I just hit Win+P. If I want to get rid of a monitor in OS X I have to turn it off or unplug the video cable. Maybe in Yosemite they added the ability to disable a monitor via control panel. OS X also wants to go to sleep if I close a Macbook/Pro lid, even if an external monitor is plugged in.

ANTSANTS 12y ago
>Save/Open dialogs in OS X are limited. One example: I go to save a file and create a folder. Ooops, I want to delete that folder but I can't do it from the dialog, I have to go and open a Finder instance. Windows generally lets you do anything in an Open/Save dialog that you can do from a Windows Explorer instance. There's a plugin for OS X that attempts to fix some of these issues called "Default Folder X". This was also a great annoyance for me on Linux (or more specifically, with the GTK file save/open dialog).