6 ms·

> Ever heard the phrase "my right to extend my arm stops at your nose"? Great idea. Easy to misapply, because with speech people are very bad at knowing where

by Kalium 12y ago

> Ever heard the phrase "my right to extend my arm stops at your nose"? Great idea. Easy to misapply, because with speech people are very bad at knowing where their nose actually is. Having hurt feelings from something someone said? Not being hit in the nose, but I know plenty of people disagree.

steveklabnik 12y ago
Let's be real here, SWAT teams showing up at your house is far different than 'having hurt feelings from something someone said.'
- Kalium 12y ago
  I agree, the two are very different. However, a number of people consider their own negative emotions to be a good reason to restrict the speech of others. There's a reason that flag-burning hit the SCOTUS.
- ANTSANTS 12y ago
  Members of the anti-GG and social justice crowds have carried out similarly stupid and counterproductive acts of aggression and bullying. They still all deserve a voice and home. SWATing is horrible, but IMHO you should be placing more of the blame on our fucked up militarized police system that lets bored teenagers send an armored car full of soldiers, armed to the teeth and ready to kill to anyone's house with a single phone call. If it takes a few SWATings for the public to realize that this is completely unacceptable, so be it.
  - jeffcox 12y ago
    >Members of the anti-GG and social justice crowds have carried out similarly stupid and counterproductive acts of aggression and bullying. It's not directly relevant to the topic, but if you really believe this you should better educate yourself with regard to what has been done in the name of gamergate. >IMHO you should be placing more of the blame on our fucked up militarized police system that lets bored teenagers send an armored car full of soldiers, armed to the teeth and ready to kill to anyone's house with a single phone call. If it takes a few SWATings for the public to realize that this is completely unacceptable, so be it. SWATing has been an ongoing thing for quite a while, with a few cases making their way into mainstream news. Perpetrators (when caught) are prosecuted quite heavily. Waving off SWATing as not the fault of places which allow and encourage harassment in the form of doxing just because the military industrial complex exists seems like blaming auto manufacturers for drunk drivers.
    - Kalium 12y ago
      I've actually had arguments with people who believe drunk driving is the fault of "the system" for not making transit instant and free for everyone. So blaming auto manufacturers is the sort of thing people actually believe.
      - Crito 12y ago
        > "I've actually had arguments with people who believe drunk driving is the fault of "the system" for not making transit instant and free for everyone." "Fault" is a concept that I believes always lies with the person who is actually committing the crime, but I think the general idea isn't outlandish. Say I've got a problem of drunks leaving the bars at night and pissing on the sidewalk. I can make it illegal, arrest anyone who does it, and when the complaints continue to roll in I can point out you can't make people not break the law. It is nobody's fault but their own, surely I cannot be responsible for another man's bladder. Alternatively I can recognize the futile nature of attempting to correct this behavior with laws alone, and do something like install public toilets in problem areas. Designing a society to accommodate people such that they are less likely to break the law does not mean that I am assuming responsibility for their actions, nor assigning fault to myself when people break the law.
        Kalium 12y ago
        This particular person believed that going out and getting drunk was a basic human right, and that having to be responsible for your own transportation infringed on that right. Less of the pragmatic concessions and more of the bizarre notions of fault.
    - ANTSANTS 12y ago
      >It's not directly relevant to the topic, but if you really believe this you should better educate yourself with regard to what has been done in the name of gamergate. No, really, gamergate supporters like Milo Yiannopoulos have also been doxxed, sent death threats to, sent threatening packages to, had their family members harassed, etc. The social justice movement contains honest supporters of diversity in tech, and psychotic scumbags like Shanley Kane. There are idiotic assholes on both "sides," and you shouldn't let them discount the entirety of the movements they "support." I'm in no way excusing SWATing, but I absolutely think the outrage it generates should be directed towards our militarized police system. The drunk driving analogy is stupid because the benefits that cars provide to society outweigh the negatives of drunk drivers, but there is no good reason for an anonymous tip to warrant armed soldiers breaking into your house in the night, usually making no indication that they are policemen and not just thugs and robbers, and shooting you dead if you so much as move the wrong way in your confusion. It's a profoundly dangerous and easy to abuse system, and it needs to change.
- makomk 12y ago
  Let's be real here, the incidences of SWAT teams showing up at people's houses have mostly been used to argue that action should be taken against people who say negative things online. Hell, we've even had demands that everyone in the gaming community should be forced to use their real name to end harassment, which is just about the worst thing you could do if you cared about SWATting but very handy for punishing people who hold the wrong views.
- theorique 12y ago
  This hasn't happened though. It's rare enough that people use it as a hypothetical example of "oh my god, what if?"
  - jellicle 12y ago
    Hasn't happened? http://gawker.com/8channers-sent-cops-to-wrong-house-in-attempt-to-attack-1677512916 http://gawker.com/8channers-sent-cops-to-wrong-house-in-atte... http://feministing.com/2015/01/16/things-have-happened-in-the-past-week-on-doxing-swatting-and-8chan/ http://feministing.com/2015/01/16/things-have-happened-in-th...
    - pervycreeper 12y ago
      Those articles are just repeating the accusation without evidence. Also, I'm not sure why anyone would give any credence to information from those sources in the first place. I am astounded by the viciousness and mendacity of those who are determined to undermine 8chan at any cost. These people are essentially fighting for total corporate control of every corner of the internet, just because 8chan doesn't promote their pet issue.
      - PhasmaFelis 12y ago
        > Those articles are just repeating the accusation without evidence Except for all the evidence that's in the article, like the newspaper link with quotes from the police chief. But hey, if you ignore all the evidence, there's no evidence! > Also, I'm not sure why anyone would give any credence to information from those sources in the first place. Probably because they lie a lot less than GamerGaters seem to.
      - smasuch 12y ago
        If 8chan didn't keep calling the police on people, I think it would probably get a lot less heat. You can't claim to be all for free speech, then say it's okay to call the police on somebody who said something you didn't like.

by Kalium 12y ago

steveklabnik 12y ago

Let's be real here, SWAT teams showing up at your house is far different than 'having hurt feelings from something someone said.'

Kalium 12y ago
I agree, the two are very different. However, a number of people consider their own negative emotions to be a good reason to restrict the speech of others. There's a reason that flag-burning hit the SCOTUS.
ANTSANTS 12y ago
Members of the anti-GG and social justice crowds have carried out similarly stupid and counterproductive acts of aggression and bullying. They still all deserve a voice and home. SWATing is horrible, but IMHO you should be placing more of the blame on our fucked up militarized police system that lets bored teenagers send an armored car full of soldiers, armed to the teeth and ready to kill to anyone's house with a single phone call. If it takes a few SWATings for the public to realize that this is completely unacceptable, so be it.
- jeffcox 12y ago
  >Members of the anti-GG and social justice crowds have carried out similarly stupid and counterproductive acts of aggression and bullying. It's not directly relevant to the topic, but if you really believe this you should better educate yourself with regard to what has been done in the name of gamergate. >IMHO you should be placing more of the blame on our fucked up militarized police system that lets bored teenagers send an armored car full of soldiers, armed to the teeth and ready to kill to anyone's house with a single phone call. If it takes a few SWATings for the public to realize that this is completely unacceptable, so be it. SWATing has been an ongoing thing for quite a while, with a few cases making their way into mainstream news. Perpetrators (when caught) are prosecuted quite heavily. Waving off SWATing as not the fault of places which allow and encourage harassment in the form of doxing just because the military industrial complex exists seems like blaming auto manufacturers for drunk drivers.
  - Kalium 12y ago
    I've actually had arguments with people who believe drunk driving is the fault of "the system" for not making transit instant and free for everyone. So blaming auto manufacturers is the sort of thing people actually believe.
    - Crito 12y ago
      > "I've actually had arguments with people who believe drunk driving is the fault of "the system" for not making transit instant and free for everyone." "Fault" is a concept that I believes always lies with the person who is actually committing the crime, but I think the general idea isn't outlandish. Say I've got a problem of drunks leaving the bars at night and pissing on the sidewalk. I can make it illegal, arrest anyone who does it, and when the complaints continue to roll in I can point out you can't make people not break the law. It is nobody's fault but their own, surely I cannot be responsible for another man's bladder. Alternatively I can recognize the futile nature of attempting to correct this behavior with laws alone, and do something like install public toilets in problem areas. Designing a society to accommodate people such that they are less likely to break the law does not mean that I am assuming responsibility for their actions, nor assigning fault to myself when people break the law.
      - Kalium 12y ago
        This particular person believed that going out and getting drunk was a basic human right, and that having to be responsible for your own transportation infringed on that right. Less of the pragmatic concessions and more of the bizarre notions of fault.
  - ANTSANTS 12y ago
    >It's not directly relevant to the topic, but if you really believe this you should better educate yourself with regard to what has been done in the name of gamergate. No, really, gamergate supporters like Milo Yiannopoulos have also been doxxed, sent death threats to, sent threatening packages to, had their family members harassed, etc. The social justice movement contains honest supporters of diversity in tech, and psychotic scumbags like Shanley Kane. There are idiotic assholes on both "sides," and you shouldn't let them discount the entirety of the movements they "support." I'm in no way excusing SWATing, but I absolutely think the outrage it generates should be directed towards our militarized police system. The drunk driving analogy is stupid because the benefits that cars provide to society outweigh the negatives of drunk drivers, but there is no good reason for an anonymous tip to warrant armed soldiers breaking into your house in the night, usually making no indication that they are policemen and not just thugs and robbers, and shooting you dead if you so much as move the wrong way in your confusion. It's a profoundly dangerous and easy to abuse system, and it needs to change.
makomk 12y ago
Let's be real here, the incidences of SWAT teams showing up at people's houses have mostly been used to argue that action should be taken against people who say negative things online. Hell, we've even had demands that everyone in the gaming community should be forced to use their real name to end harassment, which is just about the worst thing you could do if you cared about SWATting but very handy for punishing people who hold the wrong views.
theorique 12y ago
This hasn't happened though. It's rare enough that people use it as a hypothetical example of "oh my god, what if?"
- jellicle 12y ago
  Hasn't happened? http://gawker.com/8channers-sent-cops-to-wrong-house-in-attempt-to-attack-1677512916 http://gawker.com/8channers-sent-cops-to-wrong-house-in-atte... http://feministing.com/2015/01/16/things-have-happened-in-the-past-week-on-doxing-swatting-and-8chan/ http://feministing.com/2015/01/16/things-have-happened-in-th...
  - pervycreeper 12y ago
    Those articles are just repeating the accusation without evidence. Also, I'm not sure why anyone would give any credence to information from those sources in the first place. I am astounded by the viciousness and mendacity of those who are determined to undermine 8chan at any cost. These people are essentially fighting for total corporate control of every corner of the internet, just because 8chan doesn't promote their pet issue.
    - PhasmaFelis 12y ago
      > Those articles are just repeating the accusation without evidence Except for all the evidence that's in the article, like the newspaper link with quotes from the police chief. But hey, if you ignore all the evidence, there's no evidence! > Also, I'm not sure why anyone would give any credence to information from those sources in the first place. Probably because they lie a lot less than GamerGaters seem to.
    - smasuch 12y ago
      If 8chan didn't keep calling the police on people, I think it would probably get a lot less heat. You can't claim to be all for free speech, then say it's okay to call the police on somebody who said something you didn't like.