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Parking consumes a huge amount of land, which isn't free in urban neighborhoods. Requiring businesses to provide it is a 'stealth tax' on goods, which raises co

Parking consumes a huge amount of land, which isn't free in urban neighborhoods. Requiring businesses to provide it is a 'stealth tax' on goods, which raises costs for people who can't afford or don't want a car. And when a neighborhood is built out with enough parking for anyone who possibly wants it, it becomes so spread out that it is essentially impossible to walk anywhere or to serve it properly with mass transit. Requiring car ownership to be employable (or at least to access most jobs) is a far larger stealth tax!

VLM 12y ago
Its the "cars create economic diversity" argument. Can't have collectible coin stores, gaming stores, beer brewing stores, makerspace, none of that without cars because a walking or bus radius can't keep it alive in that small radius. Even big venues like the local sports stadium and the music halls would be dead without cars to bring in distant spenders. You can run convenience stores and bars solely on walk in traffic, but there's more to life than doritos and getting drunk, or there should be. The destruction of brick and mortar retail by online will have some interesting effects... Now, or certainly in the future, I could live in a city without a car and unable to visit (closed/closing) retail shops as long as UPS still delivers "the good stuff" Lack of competition also has a stealth tax on the residents. Why sell a banana for less than $5 if you're the only banana seller in walking distance. In car country the market is more competitive so I may burn $1 of gas to go shopping, but I'll save 50% on a bag of groceries so its a huge net win as long as my bag of groceries costs more than $2 or so.
- Noreaster76 12y ago
  > Can't have collectible coin stores, gaming stores, beer brewing stores, makerspace, none of that without cars Strongly disagree. In Manhattan's SoHo neighborhood, there's a block with not one, but two shops that sell only chess sets and things related to chess. Old, walkable downtowns (the ones that have survived the advent of the car, at least) have just as much diversity of retail businesses as the homogenous suburbs (where you have your Best Buy, your Walmart, your Olive Garden, and so on), if not more.
  - nl 12y ago
    The density and sheer population of New York makes that an example that doesn't transfer easily.
    - akgerber 12y ago
      You don't need an automobile to travel beyond your neighborhood! You can take a bus or a train or ride your bike, even in suburban areas. Plenty of midsize cities worldwide work on various combination of mass transit, automobiles, walking, and bicycles. The automobile monoculture in most midsize American cities is a product of our early development of cheap automobiles combined with federal policies massively subsidizing highways and the racial paroxysms of the mid-20th century. Even Canadian midsize cities, which in many ways are very similar to those in USA (except for far worse weather) have far higher transit usage. In Calgary, 'the Dallas of Canada', full of oil money & newly-built single-family homes, 24.3% of commuters use transit, and that's considered low! http://www.calgaryjournal.ca/index.php/news/2538-calgary-s-transit-usage-pales-in-comparison-to-other-cities http://www.calgaryjournal.ca/index.php/news/2538-calgary-s-t... Likewise, newly built Dutch suburbs have many features that resemble American suburbia, but have good bike lanes and acceptable bus transit: http://usa.streetsblog.org/2015/01/15/dutch-suburbs-are-like-americas-and-protected-bike-lanes-work-fine-there/ http://usa.streetsblog.org/2015/01/15/dutch-suburbs-are-like... Manhattan is still dependent on transit because it's one of the few places in America that's so dense, even 60 years of dedicated auto-first policy couldn't change the facts on the ground.
    - akgerber 12y ago
      You don't need an automobile to travel beyond your neighborhood! You can take a bus or a train or ride your bike, even in suburban areas. Plenty of midsize cities worldwide work on various combination of mass transit, automobiles, walking, and bicycles. The automobile monoculture in most midsize American cities is a product of our early development of cheap automobiles combined with federal policies massively subsidizing highways and the racial paroxysms of the mid-20th century. Even Canadian midsize cities, which in many ways are very similar to those in USA (except for far worse weather) have far higher transit usage. In Calgary, 'the Dallas of Canada', full of oil money & newly-built single-family homes, 24.3% of commuters use transit, and that's considered low! http://www.calgaryjournal.ca/index.php/news/2538-calgary-s-transit-usage-pales-in-comparison-to-other-cities http://www.calgaryjournal.ca/index.php/news/2538-calgary-s-t... Likewise, newly built Dutch suburbs have many features that resemble American suburbia, but have good bike lanes and acceptable bus transit: http://usa.streetsblog.org/2015/01/15/dutch-suburbs-are-like-americas-and-protected-bike-lanes-work-fine-there/ http://usa.streetsblog.org/2015/01/15/dutch-suburbs-are-like... Manhattan is still dependent on transit because it's one of the few places in America that's so dense, even 60 years of dedicated auto-first policy couldn't change the facts on the ground. But America had many other transit-oriented downtowns & dense neighborhoods, still has a few, and could have more again!

VLM 12y ago

Its the "cars create economic diversity" argument. Can't have collectible coin stores, gaming stores, beer brewing stores, makerspace, none of that without cars because a walking or bus radius can't keep it alive in that small radius. Even big venues like the local sports stadium and the music halls would be dead without cars to bring in distant spenders. You can run convenience stores and bars solely on walk in traffic, but there's more to life than doritos and getting drunk, or there should be. The destruction of brick and mortar retail by online will have some interesting effects... Now, or certainly in the future, I could live in a city without a car and unable to visit (closed/closing) retail shops as long as UPS still delivers "the good stuff" Lack of competition also has a stealth tax on the residents. Why sell a banana for less than $5 if you're the only banana seller in walking distance. In car country the market is more competitive so I may burn $1 of gas to go shopping, but I'll save 50% on a bag of groceries so its a huge net win as long as my bag of groceries costs more than $2 or so.

Noreaster76 12y ago
> Can't have collectible coin stores, gaming stores, beer brewing stores, makerspace, none of that without cars Strongly disagree. In Manhattan's SoHo neighborhood, there's a block with not one, but two shops that sell only chess sets and things related to chess. Old, walkable downtowns (the ones that have survived the advent of the car, at least) have just as much diversity of retail businesses as the homogenous suburbs (where you have your Best Buy, your Walmart, your Olive Garden, and so on), if not more.
- nl 12y ago
  The density and sheer population of New York makes that an example that doesn't transfer easily.
  - akgerber 12y ago
    You don't need an automobile to travel beyond your neighborhood! You can take a bus or a train or ride your bike, even in suburban areas. Plenty of midsize cities worldwide work on various combination of mass transit, automobiles, walking, and bicycles. The automobile monoculture in most midsize American cities is a product of our early development of cheap automobiles combined with federal policies massively subsidizing highways and the racial paroxysms of the mid-20th century. Even Canadian midsize cities, which in many ways are very similar to those in USA (except for far worse weather) have far higher transit usage. In Calgary, 'the Dallas of Canada', full of oil money & newly-built single-family homes, 24.3% of commuters use transit, and that's considered low! http://www.calgaryjournal.ca/index.php/news/2538-calgary-s-transit-usage-pales-in-comparison-to-other-cities http://www.calgaryjournal.ca/index.php/news/2538-calgary-s-t... Likewise, newly built Dutch suburbs have many features that resemble American suburbia, but have good bike lanes and acceptable bus transit: http://usa.streetsblog.org/2015/01/15/dutch-suburbs-are-like-americas-and-protected-bike-lanes-work-fine-there/ http://usa.streetsblog.org/2015/01/15/dutch-suburbs-are-like... Manhattan is still dependent on transit because it's one of the few places in America that's so dense, even 60 years of dedicated auto-first policy couldn't change the facts on the ground.
  - akgerber 12y ago
    You don't need an automobile to travel beyond your neighborhood! You can take a bus or a train or ride your bike, even in suburban areas. Plenty of midsize cities worldwide work on various combination of mass transit, automobiles, walking, and bicycles. The automobile monoculture in most midsize American cities is a product of our early development of cheap automobiles combined with federal policies massively subsidizing highways and the racial paroxysms of the mid-20th century. Even Canadian midsize cities, which in many ways are very similar to those in USA (except for far worse weather) have far higher transit usage. In Calgary, 'the Dallas of Canada', full of oil money & newly-built single-family homes, 24.3% of commuters use transit, and that's considered low! http://www.calgaryjournal.ca/index.php/news/2538-calgary-s-transit-usage-pales-in-comparison-to-other-cities http://www.calgaryjournal.ca/index.php/news/2538-calgary-s-t... Likewise, newly built Dutch suburbs have many features that resemble American suburbia, but have good bike lanes and acceptable bus transit: http://usa.streetsblog.org/2015/01/15/dutch-suburbs-are-like-americas-and-protected-bike-lanes-work-fine-there/ http://usa.streetsblog.org/2015/01/15/dutch-suburbs-are-like... Manhattan is still dependent on transit because it's one of the few places in America that's so dense, even 60 years of dedicated auto-first policy couldn't change the facts on the ground. But America had many other transit-oriented downtowns & dense neighborhoods, still has a few, and could have more again!