6 ms·

>In short: you know too much. These salaries are taken by fresh college grads who don't know better, and think the adventure of "a startup" is better than worki

by lsc 12y ago

>In short: you know too much. These salaries are taken by fresh college grads who don't know better, and think the adventure of "a startup" is better than working for a larger company (it can be, but there's no guarantee). While you are right, you make it sound like $90K is underpaid for someone right out of college. $90K is pretty good for a promising kid with a fresh degree but no real experience. More than fair; they are unlikely to get much more at a real company. It's kinda silly for someone with 10+ years experience, but those 10+ years are worth something.

smeyer 12y ago
>they are unlikely to get much more at a real company It depends on the school. For my friends going into software out of college, 90k was towards the bottom end (the top end was more like 200k).
- lsc 12y ago
  yeah, I'm talking about a normal uni. I'm sure if you go to Stanford (and/or have parents who could get you into Stanford) the world looks like a very different place. Of the people I know, $130K+ is a reasonable salary, with some experience under your belt. Out of college, you are looking at $80-$85K cash (maybe $90K if you convert stock and other bits to cash) I do know a small handful of technical people who can pull off $200K plus, but they are experienced and staggeringly good, and have proved that they are staggeringly good. It's not something that your regular programmer can expect.
eropple 12y ago
I got $85K at a Boston company not known for paying top-of-market, just out of college, in 2010. A junior dev not getting $100K right out of college in SF is being underpaid even worse than is normal in this industry.
- lsc 12y ago
  if you think it can be normal to be underpaid... you are using words differently than I am. In this context, by 'underpaid' I mean "getting paid less than the prevailing wage for the work you are doing" - and by 'normal' I mean 'average or median- usual' Using my definitions, it's impossible for it to be normal to be underpaid. You are only underpaid if you are getting less than the normal wage. Some people use 'underpaid' to mean something that has to do with the cost of living, and some people use 'normal' to mean "correct" - but that makes for a very different sort of conversation.
  - eropple 12y ago
    It is normal to be underpaid in this industry relative to the astonishing value a software developer creates, yes. This should not be controversial. $85K is low, even taking that into account, for a new college graduate.
    - lsc 12y ago
      >It is normal to be underpaid in this industry relative to the astonishing value a software developer creates, yes. Your opinion of how much value a software developer creates is irrelevant, except to the extent that it influences wages you are willing to pay to others, or wages you are willing to accept, and only that matters to the extent that there is demand for you and/or how many developers you can hire. In the real world, median starting salary doesn't even break 70K, much less 85K, according to salary.com, even in silicon valley. http://swz.salary.com/SalaryWizard/Software-Developer-I-Salary-Details-95054-Santa-Clara-CA.aspx http://swz.salary.com/SalaryWizard/Software-Developer-I-Sala... My point, with this thread, is that while yes, there does exist a group of developers who make bank right out the gate and continue to do so throughout their career, for most of us? most of us are median. For most of us, $200K+ a year is purest of fantasy. And $85K right out of school is not bad at all.
      - eropple 12y ago
        > Your opinion of how much value a software developer creates is irrelevant, except to the extent that it influences wages you are willing to pay to others, or wages you are willing to accept, and only that matters to the extent that there is demand for you and/or how many developers you can hire. Or to the extent that the capitalist class can collude (with the help of useful idiots who have bought into the narrative) to avoid paying a wage representative of the value created. Markets with imperfect information are set by the ones with the most information, and that's not the worker. The results are unsurprising. > In the real world, median starting salary doesn't even break 70K, much less 85K, according to salary.com, even in silicon valley. That's great. I live in the real world and I made $85K coming out of college, in Boston, at a decent-not-great company in 2010. In this industry, "median" is fairly terrible.

by lsc 12y ago

smeyer 12y ago

>they are unlikely to get much more at a real company It depends on the school. For my friends going into software out of college, 90k was towards the bottom end (the top end was more like 200k).

lsc 12y ago
yeah, I'm talking about a normal uni. I'm sure if you go to Stanford (and/or have parents who could get you into Stanford) the world looks like a very different place. Of the people I know, $130K+ is a reasonable salary, with some experience under your belt. Out of college, you are looking at $80-$85K cash (maybe $90K if you convert stock and other bits to cash) I do know a small handful of technical people who can pull off $200K plus, but they are experienced and staggeringly good, and have proved that they are staggeringly good. It's not something that your regular programmer can expect.

eropple 12y ago

I got $85K at a Boston company not known for paying top-of-market, just out of college, in 2010. A junior dev not getting $100K right out of college in SF is being underpaid even worse than is normal in this industry.

lsc 12y ago
if you think it can be normal to be underpaid... you are using words differently than I am. In this context, by 'underpaid' I mean "getting paid less than the prevailing wage for the work you are doing" - and by 'normal' I mean 'average or median- usual' Using my definitions, it's impossible for it to be normal to be underpaid. You are only underpaid if you are getting less than the normal wage. Some people use 'underpaid' to mean something that has to do with the cost of living, and some people use 'normal' to mean "correct" - but that makes for a very different sort of conversation.
- eropple 12y ago
  It is normal to be underpaid in this industry relative to the astonishing value a software developer creates, yes. This should not be controversial. $85K is low, even taking that into account, for a new college graduate.
  - lsc 12y ago
    >It is normal to be underpaid in this industry relative to the astonishing value a software developer creates, yes. Your opinion of how much value a software developer creates is irrelevant, except to the extent that it influences wages you are willing to pay to others, or wages you are willing to accept, and only that matters to the extent that there is demand for you and/or how many developers you can hire. In the real world, median starting salary doesn't even break 70K, much less 85K, according to salary.com, even in silicon valley. http://swz.salary.com/SalaryWizard/Software-Developer-I-Salary-Details-95054-Santa-Clara-CA.aspx http://swz.salary.com/SalaryWizard/Software-Developer-I-Sala... My point, with this thread, is that while yes, there does exist a group of developers who make bank right out the gate and continue to do so throughout their career, for most of us? most of us are median. For most of us, $200K+ a year is purest of fantasy. And $85K right out of school is not bad at all.
    - eropple 12y ago
      > Your opinion of how much value a software developer creates is irrelevant, except to the extent that it influences wages you are willing to pay to others, or wages you are willing to accept, and only that matters to the extent that there is demand for you and/or how many developers you can hire. Or to the extent that the capitalist class can collude (with the help of useful idiots who have bought into the narrative) to avoid paying a wage representative of the value created. Markets with imperfect information are set by the ones with the most information, and that's not the worker. The results are unsurprising. > In the real world, median starting salary doesn't even break 70K, much less 85K, according to salary.com, even in silicon valley. That's great. I live in the real world and I made $85K coming out of college, in Boston, at a decent-not-great company in 2010. In this industry, "median" is fairly terrible.