6 ms·

I really wanted to love OSX, but never could. I run Linux + Windows on my Macbook Pro -- Linux is a better and more open *nix, and Windows is just way faster an

I really wanted to love OSX, but never could. I run Linux + Windows on my Macbook Pro -- Linux is a better and more open *nix, and Windows is just way faster and more stable in general than anything else (at least that's my experience), especially when it comes to anything graphics intensive (graphics drivers are really-really bad on OSX). Obviously web devs see it in a different way, and I can understand that. But if you know Powershell well, then Windows can be quite convenient. For development my choice is either Windows + VS or Linux + whatever. OSX is a nice middle ground though, it's just not for me.

wvenable 12y ago
I feel the same way actually, but I realize that my opinion on this isn't mainstream. Using OS X has always been an exercise in frustration for me. Outside of the "real" shell the entire UI doesn't seem to be designed for software professionals. Ironically, the more that Windows tries to be like OS X the less I like it. Thankfully, it's still possible to turn much of that stuff off.
- moogleii 12y ago
  I don't really feel like Metro is going towards OS X at all, they seem to be strongly going their own way. >Outside of the "real" shell the entire UI doesn't seem to be designed for software professionals Interesting, any specific examples? I'm genuinely curious. For me, the more I use OSX, the more I'm frustrated with Windows. The one thing I do miss from Windows is better full screen support. Yosemite kinda helped with that (but it's still kinda clunky). Other than that, I feel like there's a little more logic behind OSX with common operations, off the top of my head: Option/alt to modify existing commands. The keyboard kungfu on OSX seems easier on the hands, too, since the combos typically rely on thumb keys vs a Windows pinky reach of Ctrl. Especially noticeable because the thumbs seem pretty underutilized vs pinkies, which already have plenty of keyboard duties. File renaming: "Enter" to rename a file vs "F2" (something I happily accepted as random dogma, but now it's "??") Folder/file nav: unified drill down in the file browser (cmd+up/down to navigate levels, with the file level simply opening the file, vs arrow keys, then enter to open) Window management: being able to close all windows without exiting the app itself (handy when I'm clearing clutter but I don't want to pay a cost for restarting a big application, or if I simply just didn't realize it was the last window when I closed it, and now I have to relaunch the application) *Scrolling: Being able to scroll any window whether or not it's the active application, so long as the mouse cursor is hovering over content. Not to say everything is more logical, just common things I do. The screen capture shortcut is totally bizarre to me, I have to google it every time.
  - wvenable 12y ago
    > don't really feel like Metro is going towards OS X at all, they seem to be strongly going their own way. I actually meant the desktop parts, no metro. For example, the taskbar is becoming more dock-like in every release. > Interesting, any specific examples? I'm genuinely curious. It's somewhat hard to nail down. I find it much more mouse heavy. I find the window management to be annoying; I prefer full-screen apps with dockable panels to the mess of random windows normally found in OS X apps. I definitely feel having one menu bar WAY at the top of a single screen to be insane. I'm sitting in front of 2 24" monitors kinda makes OS X seem a bit underwhelming. On Windows, I have two task bars showing different tasks for each window. Two start menus (thanks Classicshell) and my apps have their own menus. It seems like the apps have a lot of style-over-substance going on. Code editors with pop-out drawers which are both stupid and a waste of pixels. > File renaming: "Enter" to rename a file vs "F2" (something I happily accepted as random dogma, but now it's "??") F2 works but I never use it. I always just click twice to rename. > Window management: being able to close all windows without exiting the app itself (handy when I'm clearing clutter but I don't want to pay a cost for restarting a big application, or if I simply just didn't realize it was the last window when I closed it, and now I have to relaunch the application) Most Windows applications are MDI or tabbed so this seems like less of issue. Even a lot of OS X apps are tabbed. I actually hate what you like: nothing but the menu bar open indicating that the app is in focus and running. I've been confused by that a few times. > Scrolling: Being able to scroll any window whether or not it's the active application, so long as the mouse cursor is hovering over content. Yeah, you got me there. For the longest time, OS X was missing some really obvious stuff though. Like resizing windows from any corner! I found nothing more annoying than having to move a window around to then resize it. > Not to say everything is more logical, just common things I do. The screen capture shortcut is totally bizarre to me, I have to google it every time. SHIFT-PRNTSCN? It's got a labeled key on the keyboard!
    - moogleii 12y ago
      Ha, looks like my opinions hurt someone's feelings and got downvoted. Meh. >SHIFT-PRNTSCN? It's got a labeled key on the keyboard! Right. I meant it was less logical on OSX. Cmd-shift-3? Bizarre. And yeah, I had to google it again. http://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201361 http://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201361 >I actually hate what you like: nothing but the menu bar open indicating that the app is in focus and running. I've been confused by that a few times. Haha, I'm glad we can civilly hate each other's preferences. To me, repeating the menu strip for each window is a waste of real-estate, but i'm a huge desktop space whore. I don't need "File, Edit, etc" on every program window. I know it's there, so I prefer it to be in a common area. Actually, I find myself getting confused the other way around. In Windows, if I step away from my desk, and come back, it's not clear to me which program is currently active because they're all showing their menu bars just like all the other programs (now that we discuss it, I feel like the root of our different workflows has as lot to do with the fact that I prefer to autohide my taskbars). This combined with the unified window/program closing has lead to gnashing of teeth more than once. >Most Windows applications are MDI or tabbed so this seems like less of issue.Even a lot of OS X apps are tabbed. I appreciate the shift with some programs, but it doesn't seem as prevalent as I feel it should be, or we're not talking about the same thing. IE and Office are definitely guilty of this. Ctrl+w your tabs enough, and it'll simply close out the program. Or if you choose to X out your windows via mouse, if it's the last window, it will exit out the program. "Window" and "program" seem to be synonymous, so this requires I do a time-wasting check whether it's the last instance or not. Whereas in OSX, exiting the program is a discrete cmd+q vs closing a window (cmd+w). As long as those two remain intertwined concepts in Windows, it's going to feel less logical to me (in my opinion of course). So far, I feel pretty keyboard-warrior-y just as much as I was on Windows. Which probably comes back to workflows. As you pointed out, you use the mouse to rename files, whereas I don't. I figure if I'm renaming a file, I need to type a new name, so my hands can be in the classic "home" position instead of moving around to the mouse or F2. I can see your point about the taskbar, but after a month of use (which admittedly was painful), I honestly stopped missing it. The OS X dock does show what apps are open as well with a lit up effect. Though in both OSes, I end up autohiding them. And worst case scenario, the OS X version of aero tab/Winkey+tab groups together all your active windows by program (though the feature kind of chugged when it first released, but I'd argue aero tab was pretty clunky on older machines when it first came out as well). >For the longest time, OS X was missing some really obvious stuff though. Like resizing windows from any corner! So true. And they finally ditched the bizarre "green" button behavior.
- jjoonathan 12y ago
  > Outside of the "real" shell the entire UI doesn't seem to be designed for software professionals. Funny, because one of my big peeves with Windows and Linux is that certain developer-handy UI/UX features are missing and/or a pain in the ass to set up (even aside from the terminal). * Emacs editing and movement shortcuts are built into OSX system-wide. (Ctrl+A and Ctrl+P collide on Win, Linux and keyboard management in ubuntu is messy and unreliable) * Modifier-remapping is easy and solid on OSX (Need to run the download.com gauntlet on Windows, Linux is again an unreliable mess) * Opening a document's parent folder(s) is easy and universal on OSX (command click on document icon in title bar), good luck finding this outside an IDE anywhere else. * Turning off a laptop's screen on demand is easy and reliable on OSX. It's frustrating on windows (I need 2 apps and a couple lines of code, wtf) and a nightmare on linux (where you're lucky to get working brightness control at all, let alone one that goes all the way to 0). * Thermal management is solid on OSX. I can let my laptop build at night and sleep in the same room because the fan controller actually works. Meanwhile, Linux doesn't recognize the fans (you know what that means: max rpm all the time) and windows revs up like a NASCAR driver in rush hour traffic (it bluescreened both custom fan control apps I've tried, naturally). * It's easy to get a file from Finder into "Open..." dialogs: just drag and drop (e.g. attach file), as opposed to re-navigating through the entire filesystem. Windows has one especially braindead "open" dialog type that almost seems to be designed for the particular purpose of making this difficult (you know, the one that doesn't let you Ctrl+L, doesn't scroll sideways, doesn't remember the last directory you were in, etc). * Finder knows how to sort alphabetically. For some reason the closest that Windows is willing to do is "Sort by File/Folder status, and THEN alphabetically by name." This has the very frustrating effect that unzipped folders are often very far (both in screen space and keyboard space) from their .zip files. When you have to deal with a lot of them, this gets frustrating FAST. I'll give Microsoft one thing: the Windows+X menu is a fine piece of work. But I imagine you have a list similar to my own of things that you like about Windows and can't find anywhere else. I'd appreciate a trick swap seeing as I'm stuck in the Windows ecosystem at the moment :)
  - ANTSANTS 12y ago
    >Emacs editing and movement shortcuts are built into OSX system-wide. (Ctrl+A and Ctrl+P collide on Win, Linux and keyboard management in ubuntu is messy and unreliable) Not everyone likes emacs. Like the vast majority of PC users, I grew up with CUA programs and I loath emacs keybindings. >Modifier-remapping is easy and solid on OSX (Need to run the download.com gauntlet on Windows, Linux is again an unreliable mess) Autohotkey on Windows. I'll give you Linux, I don't remember exactly what song and dance involving .xmodmap and .xinitrc or some other shit I've forgotten that I had to go through last time. >Opening a document's parent folder(s) is easy and universal on OSX (command click on document icon in title bar), good luck finding this outside an IDE anywhere else. Most programs I've used support a "right click->open containing folder" option. >Turning off a laptop's screen on demand is easy and reliable on OSX. It's frustrating on windows (I need 2 apps and a couple lines of code, wtf) and a nightmare on linux (where you're lucky to get working brightness control at all, let alone one that goes all the way to 0). I could have sworn this "just worked" with my Thinkpad, but maybe it's different for Macbooks. Ditto for thermal management. Linux of course is a nightmare. >It's easy to get a file from Finder into "Open..." dialogs: just drag and drop (e.g. attach file), as opposed to re-navigating through the entire filesystem. Windows has one especially braindead "open" dialog type that almost seems to be designed for the particular purpose of making this difficult (you know, the one that doesn't let you Ctrl+L, doesn't scroll sideways, doesn't remember the last directory you were in, etc). Drag and drop is supported by almost every Windows program I've used. For attaching files in web forms, you're supposed to drag the file onto the "select file" button in the web page, not into the "open file" dialog. >Finder knows how to sort alphabetically. For some reason the closest that Windows is willing to do is "Sort by File/Folder status, and THEN alphabetically by name." This has the very frustrating effect that unzipped folders are often very far (both in screen space and keyboard space) from their .zip files. When you have to deal with a lot of them, this gets frustrating FAST. I prefer it that way, because 99% of the time I'm not unzipping a bunch of .zip files, and I'd rather see the directories first if I'm trying to navigate deep into a directory tree.
- WorldWideWayne 12y ago
  > ...the more that Windows tries to be like OS X the less I like it. I am with you! It started with the default Taskbar configuration and "pinning" things. I find it completely useless and I always disable grouping. Furthermore, I use 7+ taskbar tweaker to make the Taskbar act exactly the way I want it to and I have actually written a couple Microsofties in an attempt to get them to buy this company and integrate it :) The one thing that I'm really disappointed in though is the Ribbon. I just wish that I could hunt through it with the keyboard or mouse as easily as I can with regular menus. Hunting with the mouse is too clicky - you can scroll the middle wheel now, but I'd rather just activate each tab when I put the pointer over it. Hunting throught the Ribbon with the keyboard is ridiculous too because all of the tool-tips just get in the way of seeing what's there. I like classic menus and toolbars way, way better except when I'm on a touch device.

wvenable 12y ago

I feel the same way actually, but I realize that my opinion on this isn't mainstream. Using OS X has always been an exercise in frustration for me. Outside of the "real" shell the entire UI doesn't seem to be designed for software professionals. Ironically, the more that Windows tries to be like OS X the less I like it. Thankfully, it's still possible to turn much of that stuff off.

moogleii 12y ago
I don't really feel like Metro is going towards OS X at all, they seem to be strongly going their own way. >Outside of the "real" shell the entire UI doesn't seem to be designed for software professionals Interesting, any specific examples? I'm genuinely curious. For me, the more I use OSX, the more I'm frustrated with Windows. The one thing I do miss from Windows is better full screen support. Yosemite kinda helped with that (but it's still kinda clunky). Other than that, I feel like there's a little more logic behind OSX with common operations, off the top of my head: Option/alt to modify existing commands. The keyboard kungfu on OSX seems easier on the hands, too, since the combos typically rely on thumb keys vs a Windows pinky reach of Ctrl. Especially noticeable because the thumbs seem pretty underutilized vs pinkies, which already have plenty of keyboard duties. File renaming: "Enter" to rename a file vs "F2" (something I happily accepted as random dogma, but now it's "??") Folder/file nav: unified drill down in the file browser (cmd+up/down to navigate levels, with the file level simply opening the file, vs arrow keys, then enter to open) Window management: being able to close all windows without exiting the app itself (handy when I'm clearing clutter but I don't want to pay a cost for restarting a big application, or if I simply just didn't realize it was the last window when I closed it, and now I have to relaunch the application) *Scrolling: Being able to scroll any window whether or not it's the active application, so long as the mouse cursor is hovering over content. Not to say everything is more logical, just common things I do. The screen capture shortcut is totally bizarre to me, I have to google it every time.
- wvenable 12y ago
  > don't really feel like Metro is going towards OS X at all, they seem to be strongly going their own way. I actually meant the desktop parts, no metro. For example, the taskbar is becoming more dock-like in every release. > Interesting, any specific examples? I'm genuinely curious. It's somewhat hard to nail down. I find it much more mouse heavy. I find the window management to be annoying; I prefer full-screen apps with dockable panels to the mess of random windows normally found in OS X apps. I definitely feel having one menu bar WAY at the top of a single screen to be insane. I'm sitting in front of 2 24" monitors kinda makes OS X seem a bit underwhelming. On Windows, I have two task bars showing different tasks for each window. Two start menus (thanks Classicshell) and my apps have their own menus. It seems like the apps have a lot of style-over-substance going on. Code editors with pop-out drawers which are both stupid and a waste of pixels. > File renaming: "Enter" to rename a file vs "F2" (something I happily accepted as random dogma, but now it's "??") F2 works but I never use it. I always just click twice to rename. > Window management: being able to close all windows without exiting the app itself (handy when I'm clearing clutter but I don't want to pay a cost for restarting a big application, or if I simply just didn't realize it was the last window when I closed it, and now I have to relaunch the application) Most Windows applications are MDI or tabbed so this seems like less of issue. Even a lot of OS X apps are tabbed. I actually hate what you like: nothing but the menu bar open indicating that the app is in focus and running. I've been confused by that a few times. > Scrolling: Being able to scroll any window whether or not it's the active application, so long as the mouse cursor is hovering over content. Yeah, you got me there. For the longest time, OS X was missing some really obvious stuff though. Like resizing windows from any corner! I found nothing more annoying than having to move a window around to then resize it. > Not to say everything is more logical, just common things I do. The screen capture shortcut is totally bizarre to me, I have to google it every time. SHIFT-PRNTSCN? It's got a labeled key on the keyboard!
  - moogleii 12y ago
    Ha, looks like my opinions hurt someone's feelings and got downvoted. Meh. >SHIFT-PRNTSCN? It's got a labeled key on the keyboard! Right. I meant it was less logical on OSX. Cmd-shift-3? Bizarre. And yeah, I had to google it again. http://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201361 http://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201361 >I actually hate what you like: nothing but the menu bar open indicating that the app is in focus and running. I've been confused by that a few times. Haha, I'm glad we can civilly hate each other's preferences. To me, repeating the menu strip for each window is a waste of real-estate, but i'm a huge desktop space whore. I don't need "File, Edit, etc" on every program window. I know it's there, so I prefer it to be in a common area. Actually, I find myself getting confused the other way around. In Windows, if I step away from my desk, and come back, it's not clear to me which program is currently active because they're all showing their menu bars just like all the other programs (now that we discuss it, I feel like the root of our different workflows has as lot to do with the fact that I prefer to autohide my taskbars). This combined with the unified window/program closing has lead to gnashing of teeth more than once. >Most Windows applications are MDI or tabbed so this seems like less of issue.Even a lot of OS X apps are tabbed. I appreciate the shift with some programs, but it doesn't seem as prevalent as I feel it should be, or we're not talking about the same thing. IE and Office are definitely guilty of this. Ctrl+w your tabs enough, and it'll simply close out the program. Or if you choose to X out your windows via mouse, if it's the last window, it will exit out the program. "Window" and "program" seem to be synonymous, so this requires I do a time-wasting check whether it's the last instance or not. Whereas in OSX, exiting the program is a discrete cmd+q vs closing a window (cmd+w). As long as those two remain intertwined concepts in Windows, it's going to feel less logical to me (in my opinion of course). So far, I feel pretty keyboard-warrior-y just as much as I was on Windows. Which probably comes back to workflows. As you pointed out, you use the mouse to rename files, whereas I don't. I figure if I'm renaming a file, I need to type a new name, so my hands can be in the classic "home" position instead of moving around to the mouse or F2. I can see your point about the taskbar, but after a month of use (which admittedly was painful), I honestly stopped missing it. The OS X dock does show what apps are open as well with a lit up effect. Though in both OSes, I end up autohiding them. And worst case scenario, the OS X version of aero tab/Winkey+tab groups together all your active windows by program (though the feature kind of chugged when it first released, but I'd argue aero tab was pretty clunky on older machines when it first came out as well). >For the longest time, OS X was missing some really obvious stuff though. Like resizing windows from any corner! So true. And they finally ditched the bizarre "green" button behavior.
jjoonathan 12y ago
> Outside of the "real" shell the entire UI doesn't seem to be designed for software professionals. Funny, because one of my big peeves with Windows and Linux is that certain developer-handy UI/UX features are missing and/or a pain in the ass to set up (even aside from the terminal). * Emacs editing and movement shortcuts are built into OSX system-wide. (Ctrl+A and Ctrl+P collide on Win, Linux and keyboard management in ubuntu is messy and unreliable) * Modifier-remapping is easy and solid on OSX (Need to run the download.com gauntlet on Windows, Linux is again an unreliable mess) * Opening a document's parent folder(s) is easy and universal on OSX (command click on document icon in title bar), good luck finding this outside an IDE anywhere else. * Turning off a laptop's screen on demand is easy and reliable on OSX. It's frustrating on windows (I need 2 apps and a couple lines of code, wtf) and a nightmare on linux (where you're lucky to get working brightness control at all, let alone one that goes all the way to 0). * Thermal management is solid on OSX. I can let my laptop build at night and sleep in the same room because the fan controller actually works. Meanwhile, Linux doesn't recognize the fans (you know what that means: max rpm all the time) and windows revs up like a NASCAR driver in rush hour traffic (it bluescreened both custom fan control apps I've tried, naturally). * It's easy to get a file from Finder into "Open..." dialogs: just drag and drop (e.g. attach file), as opposed to re-navigating through the entire filesystem. Windows has one especially braindead "open" dialog type that almost seems to be designed for the particular purpose of making this difficult (you know, the one that doesn't let you Ctrl+L, doesn't scroll sideways, doesn't remember the last directory you were in, etc). * Finder knows how to sort alphabetically. For some reason the closest that Windows is willing to do is "Sort by File/Folder status, and THEN alphabetically by name." This has the very frustrating effect that unzipped folders are often very far (both in screen space and keyboard space) from their .zip files. When you have to deal with a lot of them, this gets frustrating FAST. I'll give Microsoft one thing: the Windows+X menu is a fine piece of work. But I imagine you have a list similar to my own of things that you like about Windows and can't find anywhere else. I'd appreciate a trick swap seeing as I'm stuck in the Windows ecosystem at the moment :)
- ANTSANTS 12y ago
  >Emacs editing and movement shortcuts are built into OSX system-wide. (Ctrl+A and Ctrl+P collide on Win, Linux and keyboard management in ubuntu is messy and unreliable) Not everyone likes emacs. Like the vast majority of PC users, I grew up with CUA programs and I loath emacs keybindings. >Modifier-remapping is easy and solid on OSX (Need to run the download.com gauntlet on Windows, Linux is again an unreliable mess) Autohotkey on Windows. I'll give you Linux, I don't remember exactly what song and dance involving .xmodmap and .xinitrc or some other shit I've forgotten that I had to go through last time. >Opening a document's parent folder(s) is easy and universal on OSX (command click on document icon in title bar), good luck finding this outside an IDE anywhere else. Most programs I've used support a "right click->open containing folder" option. >Turning off a laptop's screen on demand is easy and reliable on OSX. It's frustrating on windows (I need 2 apps and a couple lines of code, wtf) and a nightmare on linux (where you're lucky to get working brightness control at all, let alone one that goes all the way to 0). I could have sworn this "just worked" with my Thinkpad, but maybe it's different for Macbooks. Ditto for thermal management. Linux of course is a nightmare. >It's easy to get a file from Finder into "Open..." dialogs: just drag and drop (e.g. attach file), as opposed to re-navigating through the entire filesystem. Windows has one especially braindead "open" dialog type that almost seems to be designed for the particular purpose of making this difficult (you know, the one that doesn't let you Ctrl+L, doesn't scroll sideways, doesn't remember the last directory you were in, etc). Drag and drop is supported by almost every Windows program I've used. For attaching files in web forms, you're supposed to drag the file onto the "select file" button in the web page, not into the "open file" dialog. >Finder knows how to sort alphabetically. For some reason the closest that Windows is willing to do is "Sort by File/Folder status, and THEN alphabetically by name." This has the very frustrating effect that unzipped folders are often very far (both in screen space and keyboard space) from their .zip files. When you have to deal with a lot of them, this gets frustrating FAST. I prefer it that way, because 99% of the time I'm not unzipping a bunch of .zip files, and I'd rather see the directories first if I'm trying to navigate deep into a directory tree.
WorldWideWayne 12y ago
> ...the more that Windows tries to be like OS X the less I like it. I am with you! It started with the default Taskbar configuration and "pinning" things. I find it completely useless and I always disable grouping. Furthermore, I use 7+ taskbar tweaker to make the Taskbar act exactly the way I want it to and I have actually written a couple Microsofties in an attempt to get them to buy this company and integrate it :) The one thing that I'm really disappointed in though is the Ribbon. I just wish that I could hunt through it with the keyboard or mouse as easily as I can with regular menus. Hunting with the mouse is too clicky - you can scroll the middle wheel now, but I'd rather just activate each tab when I put the pointer over it. Hunting throught the Ribbon with the keyboard is ridiculous too because all of the tool-tips just get in the way of seeing what's there. I like classic menus and toolbars way, way better except when I'm on a touch device.