6 ms·

Joel Spolsky had a really interesting insight [+] once about hiring pools: they're disproportionately filled with people who you don't want working for you, bec

by patio11 12y ago

Joel Spolsky had a really interesting insight [+] once about hiring pools: they're disproportionately filled with people who you don't want working for you, because if you're hireable, you exit the hiring pool fairly quickly, and the dynamics of this system quickly mean that the pool is filled full of people who aren't even FizzBuzz qualified. I think the other side of the market is isomorphic to this: any publicly available list of jobs is disproportionately filled with positions which qualified talent has seen, evaluated, and rejected as unsuitable. [+] Citation: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/FindingGreatDevelopers.html http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/FindingGreatDeveloper...

percept 12y ago
Framework fetish foils FizzBuzz facility.
ef4 12y ago
Yes, definitely this. Don't go through the front door. At most, use publicly listed job ads as a form of research. Never assume they represent all the jobs that are actually available to you. There is no substitute for actually talking to people and getting to know them. Make your own wishlist of companies you'd like to work for. People running startups who are even minimally competent know they need to network a lot, so they're easy to find and network with.
- joshavant 12y ago
  For what it's worth, n=1, I got an internship at Google and a full-time job at Apple by applying through their respective websites. I wholeheartedly agree with checking out 'other' doors, but it definitely doesn't hurt to at least start with the front door.
  - brudgers 12y ago
    Google and Apple are the exceptions. They are massive profitable publicly held companies. And they don't compensate ordinary hires with equity on a percentage basis (maybe x number of shares as a bonus/retirement package). They are so big that they have HR policies and anyone you are likely to know well enough to give a heads up on a job at either company is not high up enough to shirk the formal HR process. Small companies are very very different.
    - dsacco 12y ago
      I'm on a first name basis with well-known engineers high enough to shrink the formal HR process at Google, Yahoo and Facebook. If I asked to interview with them tomorrow, they'd put me in the process immediately, in an expedited manner. I'd probably go straight to the on-site interview. I'm not bragging about this, because it really wasn't difficult to do. I didn't go to school with them, and with one exception I met them all after they had joined their companies. Cold-emailing influential people, or introducing yourself to them at meetups, or any one of the myriad other ways to meet people applies in this situation. Just be genuine, and network with them long before you'd ever want to call in a favor, this way you actually have a relationship with them. It also helps if you share something in common and actually have something to talk about, and if you want to connect with them for the sake of having smart colleagues, not just influential friends.
      - strathmeyer 12y ago
        When my good friends whom I helped get jobs now work for Google won't speak to me anymore, I just assume it's because they know I wouldn't make a good programmer there. It's a rough river to paddle.
      - brudgers 12y ago
        The comment to which I responded mentioned an internship at Google and a [presumably early career stage] job at Apple. I consider it an orange relative to a situation where a person has developed collegial peer relationships over some number of years in a profession.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
JSeymourATL 12y ago
Indeed-- Spolsky's solid hiring advice could readily apply in reverse for job seekers. Go to the Mountain, build your own community*. But that's hard, and surfing job boards is easy.
fivedogit 12y ago
Note: I originally posted this reply about 2 hours ago and then deleted it. But actually, I think it's worth leaving up. I really respect Joel Spolsky's accomplishments (I've mentioned him recently in my own comments), but I found the blog post you cited wrong at best and offensive at worst. It perpetuates one of the most frustrating things I experienced while job hunting: the stigma of unemployment. Even though I voluntarily left my last position, companies looked at my candidacy very skeptically. Things I was told by companies: - "To be honest, we think you're an entrepreneur just looking to make enough runway to move on to the next thing." - "Well, we're really impressed with you and you have the technical chops, but we're concerned that you like to think on a higher level and might tire of the daily nitty gritty." (Not true, and basically the same as above.) - "You did well on your coding interview, but we've got enough candidates in our local area that we've decided to restrict our search to it." (i.e. relocation jitters. Not coincidentally, when I finally found a position, it was in my city.) There are also people who are competent programmers, but come from strange backgrounds, like the music major-turned-coder who posted the other day. I, personally, am almost entirely self taught, haven't worked with other engineers and have only coded on my own projects (you can see my github if you want). People making hiring decisions are scared for their own jobs: they don't want to be the guy who hires the guy who never had a "real" coding job before. If it doesn't work out, I can see where that would come back on them pretty hard. (Conversely, having worked at Google or Apple is a major bonus for the opposite reason.) Oh, and plenty of people underperform in on-the-spot coding interviews. Some people are affected much more strongly than others by anxiety. It goes both ways. I've read hiring managers on here gripe that they hired someone who interviewed well but sucked in reality. And my guess is it goes the other way, too. So I find his assertion that people actively looking for work aren't the ones you want to hire incredibly naive, elitist and just plain wrong.
- Mimu 12y ago
  Or maybe they tried the 0 team experience dude once, and it was a disaster.
- unreal37 12y ago
  To take the other side of that argument, as someone who has seen hundreds of resumes and interviewed hundreds of developers in the past, you do have a challenge in front of you to overcome the "never had a real coding job" stigma. Focus on your strengths when selling yourself (like, being a totally awesome rock star developer who can tackle any challenge). The stigma is real and you can't fight it on those terms. But you've got other qualities that people want, and you can "win" those interviews if you can get that point across. Make your resume scream "rock star coder".

by patio11 12y ago

percept 12y ago

Framework fetish foils FizzBuzz facility.

ef4 12y ago

Yes, definitely this. Don't go through the front door. At most, use publicly listed job ads as a form of research. Never assume they represent all the jobs that are actually available to you. There is no substitute for actually talking to people and getting to know them. Make your own wishlist of companies you'd like to work for. People running startups who are even minimally competent know they need to network a lot, so they're easy to find and network with.

joshavant 12y ago
For what it's worth, n=1, I got an internship at Google and a full-time job at Apple by applying through their respective websites. I wholeheartedly agree with checking out 'other' doors, but it definitely doesn't hurt to at least start with the front door.
- brudgers 12y ago
  Google and Apple are the exceptions. They are massive profitable publicly held companies. And they don't compensate ordinary hires with equity on a percentage basis (maybe x number of shares as a bonus/retirement package). They are so big that they have HR policies and anyone you are likely to know well enough to give a heads up on a job at either company is not high up enough to shirk the formal HR process. Small companies are very very different.
  - dsacco 12y ago
    I'm on a first name basis with well-known engineers high enough to shrink the formal HR process at Google, Yahoo and Facebook. If I asked to interview with them tomorrow, they'd put me in the process immediately, in an expedited manner. I'd probably go straight to the on-site interview. I'm not bragging about this, because it really wasn't difficult to do. I didn't go to school with them, and with one exception I met them all after they had joined their companies. Cold-emailing influential people, or introducing yourself to them at meetups, or any one of the myriad other ways to meet people applies in this situation. Just be genuine, and network with them long before you'd ever want to call in a favor, this way you actually have a relationship with them. It also helps if you share something in common and actually have something to talk about, and if you want to connect with them for the sake of having smart colleagues, not just influential friends.
    - strathmeyer 12y ago
      When my good friends whom I helped get jobs now work for Google won't speak to me anymore, I just assume it's because they know I wouldn't make a good programmer there. It's a rough river to paddle.
    - brudgers 12y ago
      The comment to which I responded mentioned an internship at Google and a [presumably early career stage] job at Apple. I consider it an orange relative to a situation where a person has developed collegial peer relationships over some number of years in a profession.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

JSeymourATL 12y ago

Indeed-- Spolsky's solid hiring advice could readily apply in reverse for job seekers. Go to the Mountain, build your own community*. But that's hard, and surfing job boards is easy.

fivedogit 12y ago

Note: I originally posted this reply about 2 hours ago and then deleted it. But actually, I think it's worth leaving up. I really respect Joel Spolsky's accomplishments (I've mentioned him recently in my own comments), but I found the blog post you cited wrong at best and offensive at worst. It perpetuates one of the most frustrating things I experienced while job hunting: the stigma of unemployment. Even though I voluntarily left my last position, companies looked at my candidacy very skeptically. Things I was told by companies: - "To be honest, we think you're an entrepreneur just looking to make enough runway to move on to the next thing." - "Well, we're really impressed with you and you have the technical chops, but we're concerned that you like to think on a higher level and might tire of the daily nitty gritty." (Not true, and basically the same as above.) - "You did well on your coding interview, but we've got enough candidates in our local area that we've decided to restrict our search to it." (i.e. relocation jitters. Not coincidentally, when I finally found a position, it was in my city.) There are also people who are competent programmers, but come from strange backgrounds, like the music major-turned-coder who posted the other day. I, personally, am almost entirely self taught, haven't worked with other engineers and have only coded on my own projects (you can see my github if you want). People making hiring decisions are scared for their own jobs: they don't want to be the guy who hires the guy who never had a "real" coding job before. If it doesn't work out, I can see where that would come back on them pretty hard. (Conversely, having worked at Google or Apple is a major bonus for the opposite reason.) Oh, and plenty of people underperform in on-the-spot coding interviews. Some people are affected much more strongly than others by anxiety. It goes both ways. I've read hiring managers on here gripe that they hired someone who interviewed well but sucked in reality. And my guess is it goes the other way, too. So I find his assertion that people actively looking for work aren't the ones you want to hire incredibly naive, elitist and just plain wrong.

Mimu 12y ago
Or maybe they tried the 0 team experience dude once, and it was a disaster.
unreal37 12y ago
To take the other side of that argument, as someone who has seen hundreds of resumes and interviewed hundreds of developers in the past, you do have a challenge in front of you to overcome the "never had a real coding job" stigma. Focus on your strengths when selling yourself (like, being a totally awesome rock star developer who can tackle any challenge). The stigma is real and you can't fight it on those terms. But you've got other qualities that people want, and you can "win" those interviews if you can get that point across. Make your resume scream "rock star coder".