5 ms·

How the Germans invented gay rights more than a century ago

47 points by Thevet 12y ago

iSnow 12y ago
Not to forget the more controversial, but immensely influential figure of von Krafft-Ebing, an German-Austrian psychiatrist who was a true early bird in the empiric sexuology with his "Psychopathia Sexualis". The good about him: he was one of the first to adopt an empiric approach in sexual science and sexual medicine (which influenced Hirschfeld's thinking). The bad: he is also responsible for the link between sexuology and medicine, which led to the thinking of "treatable perversions", even if he had a lot of compassion for the subjects of his book. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_von_Krafft-Ebing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_von_Krafft-Ebing
- cbd1984 12y ago
  "Sexology" is a more common name than "sexuology", at least in English.
allendoerfer 12y ago
It will take some time, until facts like these about German history will be more wildly known, for example the liberal time of the 1920s. The NS era is just such a huge part of history lessons in school, militarism and just pure evil is by far the dominating notion of a German thinking about history. While glorifying their own shortcomings in the past, the English view on Germany [0] is much more differentiated, acknowledging the good parts like the Hanse [1] or thousand year old organizations like the Teutonic Knights [2] without just thinking about 20th century Germany's imperialism. Anecdotally Wagner, whose 200th birthday would have been 2 years ago, is casually mentioned in the article as being able to be interpreted liberally, while he is viewed much more critically in Germany [3]. Questions like whether or not one should enjoy art, whose creator was evil are not that uncommon. I think recent events like the reunion or the comeback of German football starting with the world cup in 2006 changed peoples perception about Germany quite a bit. With the Euro crisis Germany finally stopped behaving like an awkward giant Switzerland and took some responsibility in the world again. [0]: http://www.britishmuseum.org/whats_on/exhibitions/germany_memories_of_a_nation.aspx http://www.britishmuseum.org/whats_on/exhibitions/germany_me... [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanseatic_League http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanseatic_League [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teutonic_Knights http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teutonic_Knights [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Wagner#Controversies http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Wagner#Controversies
- cbd1984 12y ago
  > It will take some time, until facts like these about German history will be more wildly known, for example the liberal time of the 1920s. Back when life was a cabaret? > The NS era is just such a huge part of history lessons in school, militarism and just pure evil is by far the dominating notion of a German thinking about history. When a whole generation still living had to stop one of the clearest Moral Lessons ever to grace the page of history, it takes a while to rebuild a more nuanced view. Granted. However, it wasn't just that. The end of WWII is Year Zero for a lot of what we're still living with, from the Cold War to modern computing technology to the roads we in America drive on, because it was so destructive it erased the previous world in a way few things had. > With the Euro crisis Germany finally stopped behaving like an awkward giant Switzerland and took some responsibility in the world again. And isn't it interesting that when Europe begins to get unified, Germany is right there leading the way.
  - allendoerfer 12y ago
    > Back when life was a cabaret? Yep. All visitors were wearing a Bubikopf. > However, it wasn't just that. The end of WWII is Year Zero for a lot of what we're still living with, from the Cold War to modern computing technology to the roads we in America drive on, because it was so destructive it erased the previous world in a way few things had. My point was, that other countries are glorifying their past empires or at least acknowledge, that they once beat the British, while Germany is much more limited. Compare for example how Poles and people from Eastern Germany see Russia. > And isn't it interesting that when Europe begins to get unified, Germany is right there leading the way. Well, initially it was the other way round. Germany was unified and Europe united and integrated partly because of a growing Germany. [0] [0]: http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/the-price-of-unity-was-the-deutsche-mark-sacrificed-for-reunification-a-719940.html http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/the-price-of-uni...
  - brazzy 12y ago
    > And isn't it interesting that when Europe begins to get unified, Germany is right there leading the way. Is that in any way noteworthy, given that it's the continent's most populous and economically powerfuly nation?
optimusclimb 12y ago
People should be judged on an individual basis - because we are all different. Countries are not judged on their best individuals, but on the decisions they make as a whole. This is a function of their system of government, which in many ways is a function of the decisions of their populace as a whole. California, despite its liberal population centers in San Francisco, and LA - voted 52% in favor of banning same-sex couples from marrying in 2008. The same state that is home to the Castro district in SF, and the same state where Harvey Milk was elected. [opinion coming] The United States will likely NOT be judged favorably in history for its bullshit touting (see Jindal VERY recently) politicians, usage of torture, imperialism, and infringements on privacy. 60 years ago if you were black in this country, you had to drink from a separate water fountain. The linked story is interesting...but unfortunately...Nazis.
- mcbetz 12y ago
  What the story does tell is that there were pro gay activists in Germany before the Nazis claimed power.
  - optimusclimb 12y ago
    Sure, but since the (linkbaity) title is how GERMANY invented gay rights so long ago...I'm just saying that's kind of contradicted by the mass rounding up and expunging of homosexuals that occurred after that.
- jacquesm 12y ago
  > The linked story is interesting...but unfortunately...Nazis. I live within spitting distance of the German border. In the local stores here the Germans can be picked out easily: they're hands down more polite and well mannered than the locals. Shall we try to limit the damage done to the German image to that generation that was part of the Nazi era, not those that came into being after it and certainly not those that lived before? To your other point, that stuff in the USA is playing out today, not almost 70 years ago.
  - happyscrappy 12y ago
ginko 12y ago
>In 1896, Der Eigene (“The Self-Owning”), the first gay magazine, began publication. 'eigen' in that context rather means peculiar/particular in German.
gumby 12y ago
"Invented?" Revived in the west, perhaps. Same sex unions go back to antiquity in Mesopotamia, China, Europe and, it seems likely, in the Americas. Even the christian churches were performing same sex marriages a few centuries ago. A quick net search shows plenty of references so I won't cherry pick any. The story is an interesting anecdote of Wilhelmine Germany, but the title is overly dramatic.

47 points by Thevet 12y ago

iSnow 12y ago

Not to forget the more controversial, but immensely influential figure of von Krafft-Ebing, an German-Austrian psychiatrist who was a true early bird in the empiric sexuology with his "Psychopathia Sexualis". The good about him: he was one of the first to adopt an empiric approach in sexual science and sexual medicine (which influenced Hirschfeld's thinking). The bad: he is also responsible for the link between sexuology and medicine, which led to the thinking of "treatable perversions", even if he had a lot of compassion for the subjects of his book. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_von_Krafft-Ebing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_von_Krafft-Ebing

cbd1984 12y ago
"Sexology" is a more common name than "sexuology", at least in English.

allendoerfer 12y ago

It will take some time, until facts like these about German history will be more wildly known, for example the liberal time of the 1920s. The NS era is just such a huge part of history lessons in school, militarism and just pure evil is by far the dominating notion of a German thinking about history. While glorifying their own shortcomings in the past, the English view on Germany [0] is much more differentiated, acknowledging the good parts like the Hanse [1] or thousand year old organizations like the Teutonic Knights [2] without just thinking about 20th century Germany's imperialism. Anecdotally Wagner, whose 200th birthday would have been 2 years ago, is casually mentioned in the article as being able to be interpreted liberally, while he is viewed much more critically in Germany [3]. Questions like whether or not one should enjoy art, whose creator was evil are not that uncommon. I think recent events like the reunion or the comeback of German football starting with the world cup in 2006 changed peoples perception about Germany quite a bit. With the Euro crisis Germany finally stopped behaving like an awkward giant Switzerland and took some responsibility in the world again. [0]: http://www.britishmuseum.org/whats_on/exhibitions/germany_memories_of_a_nation.aspx http://www.britishmuseum.org/whats_on/exhibitions/germany_me... [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanseatic_League http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanseatic_League [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teutonic_Knights http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teutonic_Knights [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Wagner#Controversies http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Wagner#Controversies

cbd1984 12y ago
> It will take some time, until facts like these about German history will be more wildly known, for example the liberal time of the 1920s. Back when life was a cabaret? > The NS era is just such a huge part of history lessons in school, militarism and just pure evil is by far the dominating notion of a German thinking about history. When a whole generation still living had to stop one of the clearest Moral Lessons ever to grace the page of history, it takes a while to rebuild a more nuanced view. Granted. However, it wasn't just that. The end of WWII is Year Zero for a lot of what we're still living with, from the Cold War to modern computing technology to the roads we in America drive on, because it was so destructive it erased the previous world in a way few things had. > With the Euro crisis Germany finally stopped behaving like an awkward giant Switzerland and took some responsibility in the world again. And isn't it interesting that when Europe begins to get unified, Germany is right there leading the way.
- allendoerfer 12y ago
  > Back when life was a cabaret? Yep. All visitors were wearing a Bubikopf. > However, it wasn't just that. The end of WWII is Year Zero for a lot of what we're still living with, from the Cold War to modern computing technology to the roads we in America drive on, because it was so destructive it erased the previous world in a way few things had. My point was, that other countries are glorifying their past empires or at least acknowledge, that they once beat the British, while Germany is much more limited. Compare for example how Poles and people from Eastern Germany see Russia. > And isn't it interesting that when Europe begins to get unified, Germany is right there leading the way. Well, initially it was the other way round. Germany was unified and Europe united and integrated partly because of a growing Germany. [0] [0]: http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/the-price-of-unity-was-the-deutsche-mark-sacrificed-for-reunification-a-719940.html http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/the-price-of-uni...
- brazzy 12y ago
  > And isn't it interesting that when Europe begins to get unified, Germany is right there leading the way. Is that in any way noteworthy, given that it's the continent's most populous and economically powerfuly nation?

optimusclimb 12y ago

People should be judged on an individual basis - because we are all different. Countries are not judged on their best individuals, but on the decisions they make as a whole. This is a function of their system of government, which in many ways is a function of the decisions of their populace as a whole. California, despite its liberal population centers in San Francisco, and LA - voted 52% in favor of banning same-sex couples from marrying in 2008. The same state that is home to the Castro district in SF, and the same state where Harvey Milk was elected. [opinion coming] The United States will likely NOT be judged favorably in history for its bullshit touting (see Jindal VERY recently) politicians, usage of torture, imperialism, and infringements on privacy. 60 years ago if you were black in this country, you had to drink from a separate water fountain. The linked story is interesting...but unfortunately...Nazis.

mcbetz 12y ago
What the story does tell is that there were pro gay activists in Germany before the Nazis claimed power.
- optimusclimb 12y ago
  Sure, but since the (linkbaity) title is how GERMANY invented gay rights so long ago...I'm just saying that's kind of contradicted by the mass rounding up and expunging of homosexuals that occurred after that.
jacquesm 12y ago
> The linked story is interesting...but unfortunately...Nazis. I live within spitting distance of the German border. In the local stores here the Germans can be picked out easily: they're hands down more polite and well mannered than the locals. Shall we try to limit the damage done to the German image to that generation that was part of the Nazi era, not those that came into being after it and certainly not those that lived before? To your other point, that stuff in the USA is playing out today, not almost 70 years ago.
- happyscrappy 12y ago

ginko 12y ago

>In 1896, Der Eigene (“The Self-Owning”), the first gay magazine, began publication. 'eigen' in that context rather means peculiar/particular in German.

gumby 12y ago

"Invented?" Revived in the west, perhaps. Same sex unions go back to antiquity in Mesopotamia, China, Europe and, it seems likely, in the Americas. Even the christian churches were performing same sex marriages a few centuries ago. A quick net search shows plenty of references so I won't cherry pick any. The story is an interesting anecdote of Wilhelmine Germany, but the title is overly dramatic.