8 ms·

Dogs, but Not Wolves, Use Humans as Tools

159 points by hyp0 12y ago

skazka16 12y ago
That's interesting. Just realized that I'm a tool when my kid is crying.
- meric 12y ago
  Relevant reading on how you're a tool when your child is crying. "When the love object is one's child, natural or adopted, one protects it. The protector will risk his life for his dependent, will want only the best for him-her, will assure him-her of his love. To lose the 'child' means great unhappiness. It means to have lost 'the thing I loved most in all the world.'" And later, "children (objects of protection) — they have power over their protectors, the men and women who care for them" http://naturalthinker.net/trl/texts/Vilar,Esther/PolygamousSex.html#twokindsoflove http://naturalthinker.net/trl/texts/Vilar,Esther/PolygamousS...?
- realityking 12y ago
  "For the Athenians command the rest of Greece, I command the Athenians; your mother commands me, and you command your mother." -- Themistocles (allegedly) to his son
- cLeEOGPw 12y ago
  Yeah, also you are your spermatozoid's tool for reproducing by the same logic.
  - lumpypua 12y ago
    I mean... that is factually accurate.
sharkweek 12y ago
My own anecdotal proof of this being true - Wife and I have the seemingly dumbest labrador in the world. We adopted him at an old age (8-ish) so we didn't get the chance to raise or train him ourselves. But after we picked him up, it really only took about two days for him to settle in and learn exactly where everything was that he wanted, and he quickly learned how to signal when something was needed. He knew exactly WHAT we were good for, whether that be feeding, letting him out, play, back scratches that he can't reach, etc. We were super impressed with his ability to learn a daily routine too. "When they get home, they feed me so I'll stand by my bowl, then after I'm done they play with me so I'll grab my toy, then they take me on a walk so I'll stand by my leash"
- sync 12y ago
  Hey, just a quick FYI, you shouldn't play with your dog immediately after he eats, it can cause bloat, see e.g. http://www.globalspan.net/bloat.htm http://www.globalspan.net/bloat.htm
  - sharkweek 12y ago
    This is good advice - just for clarity, when I say "play" with our old guy it's more like... the most slow motion version of play on earth. More like he jogs around the yard with his toy while I pretend I can't catch him.
- comrh 12y ago
  Definitely experienced this with older dogs my family fosters. People go straight for the puppies but there are so many great older dogs in shelters. Just have to deal with some behavioral stuff (put up with barking most of the time).
  - sharkweek 12y ago
    HA - yep, our current dog is a talker, especially when I make any move toward the leash (and of course when he sees any murderous squirrels in our back yard). Honestly, I know that right now my wife and I can't have a puppy, we just don't have that kind of time. That's where older dogs fit right into our lifestyle, our current old guy just wants his two quick walks a day and a big couch he can sprawl on.
johnloeber 12y ago
Huh, interesting. This makes me think about domestication of animals: it's not just about us training or imposing our will on animals, but it's also about animals understanding that they can use us as tools, as the article puts it. I say this in jest, but it sort of makes you wonder about who is using whom. Oftentimes, I notice how pets (esp. cats[0]) are looked after 24/7 by their owners, groomed, given food, shelter, etc. and pretty much do nothing but continuously solicit pleasure. Traditionally, we like to think of animals as serving humans, but in a case like this, isn't the opposite true? [0] I note that cats are not fully domesticated animals. http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/11/man-cat-dog-best-friend-pet/382740/ http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/11/man-cat-...
- lifeisstillgood 12y ago
  Looking after a puppy - yes, it's stressful and far less rewarding than children. Signed, a cat person. I do however think this is a brilliant insight and in hindsight so obvious.
  - psykovsky 12y ago
    I always said dogs aren't the man best friends but only put up with us for interest, kind of a "gold-digger" pet.
- ekianjo 12y ago
  > Traditionally, we like to think of animals as serving humans, but in a case like this, isn't the opposite true? You don't consider that animals provide emotional comfort? And make owners exercise, as well, since you need to go walk with your pets on a daily basis?
  - icebraining 12y ago
    you need to go walk with your pets on a daily basis? Only for a very restricted definition of "pets"; my turtles never asked for such thing :)
  - ikurei 12y ago
kristofferR 12y ago
This experiement was featured in the documentary Dogs Decoded, here: http://vimeo.com/19472436#at=1870 http://vimeo.com/19472436#at=1870 The whole documentary is worth watching, but the fox domenstication part is especially interesting.
rebootthesystem 12y ago
I've raised and trained working line German Shepherd Dogs (GSD's) most of my adult life. The degree of communication you can have with a dog is sometimes incredible. Yes, they tell you what they want and figure out ways to communicate what they need. Very soon you develop a mutual "language" of sorts. We use hand signals for everything (as well as spoken commands). So I can be at a really noisy outdoor setting and tell them what to do without uttering a word. They also learn which member of the family is best for each need. For example, they learned that cuddling-up with my young daughter is always a sure bet, they rarely ask my oldest son for that level of attention. There's also the empathy. I've seen some amazing things, like a female GSD jumping up on the bed to cuddle-up with my wife when she got a phone call with bad news. It's freaky. They know they are not allowed in my office and stop and sit or lay down at the door. But they can also read when I am receptive to them coming in for a quick hug. They actually seem to understand when I need a break. It's an amazing relationship that I couldn't do without.
- agumonkey 12y ago
  This was on imgur recently http://imgur.com/gallery/Octdtr3 http://imgur.com/gallery/Octdtr3 dog reacting to owner having a PTSD attack. On the other side of the spectrum I remember a friend taking her young lab back into her car because he wasn't behaving right, and that little puppy, right before closing the door, pulled the most saddest face (yet funny) I've ever seen: sad eyes, tilted head, sad sounds, everything in order for an Oscar.
CurtMonash 12y ago
Cats communicate with humans a little bit, but much less than dogs do. For example, my cat, known on Twitter as the SOFS (Small Orange Furry Sociopath), has developed a very small "vocabulary" of sounds and actions to communicate with my wife and me. But really, he's not clear and consistent about anything more sophisticated than "Pay attention to me!" or "Stop touching me there!" And there isn't a single word I'm sure he understands, although I lean toward the affirmative in the case of his name. I.e., his side of communication adds up to no more than what in a dog might be a couple of tones of bark, a fast tailwag, and the grabbing of a leash to indicate enthusiasm for the of a walk.
- tonyarkles 12y ago
  I was not a cat person at all until I met my partner's cat, and even then it took a while. I didn't realize it at the time, but it mostly had to do with me not understanding "cat communication". She's probably chattier than most, but we're at a point now where I can pretty much understand her various sounds and body language to figure out exactly what's wrong (I'm out of dry food, I think it's time for my soft food, my litter box is disgusting, goddamnit it's cold out and I'm not impressed, etc). We do also have the occasional chat here and there too. But yeah, definitely way less communicative than dogs.
cel1ne 12y ago
I onced talked to a environmental engineering student in Norway who was a lumberjack and hunter earlier (that education system!). He told me that the main problem with wolves was that they are really aggressive against hunting dogs. If you split up too far from your dogs chances are high that a near wolf-pack will come, kill them in a blitz-action and run away.
antimagic 12y ago
The experiment was repeated with cats, however when the plate was placed out of their reach they simply glared balefully at the slave^H^H^H^H^H human until the error was corrected.
cLeEOGPw 12y ago
> Despite the fact that they had been fully socialized, the wolves treated each of the situations as physical problems rather than social ones. Same problem arises in many humans.
- evincarofautumn 12y ago
  Dunno why you were downvoted. It sounds cynical when you phrase it that way, but I know many people who don’t think to ask for help when they need it.
iamgoat 12y ago
This same group is covered in the Nova episode Dogs Decoded (available on Netflix US): http://documentarystorm.com/dogs-decoded/ http://documentarystorm.com/dogs-decoded/ (starting from 31:11) I'm not sure if it's this episode or some other documentary, but I remember seeing the food experiment as well. Where wolves would not look to humans for help.
putzdown 12y ago
It's an interesting article, but its use of "tool" is spurious. It appears in the title and is plunked down in front of us on the last line, but nowhere is the case made that dogs' greater social acceptance of humans amounts to anything like tool use. Great article; too bad about "tool."
mkorfmann 12y ago
When I hear about Hawking or Musk etc. being feared of AI, I always think about how cats & dogs could have also been scared facing human evolution. But yet here they still are, obviously smarter than us since they don't do shit but sleep all day ;).
- antonioevans 12y ago
  Umm.. shit and eat.. sounds like all animals (humans included).
- moe 12y ago
  since they don't do shit but sleep all day You mean the lucky few who get to live as pets?
  - pron 12y ago
    Oh, it's worse than that. The best evolutionary strategy for animals seems to be evolving into humans' pets, human food, or scavengers of human waste... Other can survive -- with human help -- by serving as entertainment.
    - tinkerrr 12y ago
      Becoming human food is an evolutionary strategy for animals?
      - LordKano 12y ago
        Natural selection would favor those organisms who live long enough to reproduce. Living into old age isn't a factor. There wouldn't be nearly as many cows, chickens or pigs on this planet if they weren't delicious. Especially pigs, humans would kill them on sight due to the tendencies of feral ones to destroy crops.
        JoeAltmaier 12y ago
        In fact wild boar is a favorite hunter's prey. Hey! Maybe wild boar are so elusive, aggressive and ugly BECAUSE hunters like that kind! Maybe they are also using humans as tools...
jussij 12y ago
> Only in this case, the humans were the tools, and the dogs the tool-users. And this is exactly why breeds like Chihuahua, Poodles and Labradoodles have done so well. These types of dogs living in a Darwinist world, have no right to survive, but thanks to their human relationships they are thriving. The big question, is this the dog wagging the tail or the tail wagging the human?
- eric_h 12y ago
  Those breeds did not spring into existence from Darwinian evolution. They came about due to selective breeding by humans. Not only would they not survive without human intervention, they wouldn't exist in the first place. (And standard poodles are actually very intelligent/capable, it's the teacup sized ones that are worthless).
- josefresco 12y ago
  With all due respect to Chihuahuas, standard Poodles do pretty good "in the wild" and as work dogs and have a long history that doesn't involve being treated as a fashion accessory. Also, are humans exempted from a "Darwinist world"?
zcdziura 12y ago
It's actually quite funny to see this "in the wild". My parents have a two-year-old Golden Retriever that they've had since he was eight weeks old. From a very young age, he mastered the "puppy face" that melts my mother's heart and compels her to do whatever he wants: giving him food, letting him outside, cuddling, sleeping on the couch, play time, sleeping on the bed, whatever. He's a naughty puppy, but dammit if we don't love him unconditionally!
yawz 12y ago
I wonder if dog's is a predisposition towards "humans" in particular or would they also socialize with other animals such as the chimps' for instance.
tessierashpool 12y ago
when I was a kid, we had a pet dog who turned out to be half-wolf. when we learned he was half-wolf, we treated him differently, and a ton of serious behavioral problems vanished instantly. these researchers had their dogs and wolves treated identically, and concluded that "even after being raised by humans, wolves simply do not see humans as potential social partners." but my interpretation is that they learned that wolves, after being raised by humans as if they were dogs, do not see humans as potential social partners. and this distinction matters, because my family's pet dog/wolf saw us all as his subordinates, until we learned the different way to act around a wolf. if you show a wolf tons and tons of affection, like it was a dog, it thinks you're trying to kiss its ass and take a subordinate position to it. all these researchers really learned here, in my opinion, was that if you communicate to a wolf that you are not to be taken seriously as a partner, it will not take you seriously as a partner. I think the possibility absolutely remains open that researchers who had bothered to do their homework first might be able to produce results where the wolves looked to the humans for help just as often as the dogs did. if you baby a wolf in the way that we baby dogs in 2015, you are probably not creating an entirely realistic simulation of the context within which wolves and humans first began collaborating.
- drzaiusapelord 12y ago
  >it thinks you're trying to kiss its ass and take a subordinate position to it. This is pretty common with "bad dogs." It turns out we just can't remove all the wolf-aspects from dogs 100% of the time. It took me a while to learn that my dog is always jockeying for position and affection, to her, is submission. She's not half-wolf, but seem seems very wolf-like. (recessive genetic trait?) I have to follow a fairly strict dominance regimen to keep her from asserting dominance and barking or even biting me. When I slack off, she becomes more aggressive. Frankly, its a hassle. The more I think about domesticated pets, the less I like the idea. So many dogs are put down for behavioral issues and most pets suffer from neglect and even mental illness. I believe there was a study that most dogs are mentally ill, probably from being housebound for so long. There's something really unnatural about the whole thing. I don't think we're going to replace this dog after she dies. As much as I dislike PETA's antics, I think their official (but almost never followed by its members) policies of ending pet ownership makes a lot of sense.
bambax 12y ago
As described, the experience doesn't really show that dogs use humans as tools, but rather that they look to their face for hints as to how to behave. This is the almost-universal behavior of low-status individuals to high-status ones (in a boardroom everyone looks at the boss to know how to react to a joke). So it could mean, not that dogs "use humans" but rather that they recognize humans (and specifically their trainer) as the leader of their pack, which wolves do not. It would be interesting to do this experiment again with dogs and a human that they absolutely don't recognize as a leader (a toddler that they have never seen before, for example). My guess is, if there are two humans in the room, a "recognized leader" and a "recognized non-leader", and if the non-leader knows how to solve the riddle, and the leader does not, then the riddle will never be solved because the dog will never seek the help of the non-leader.
- tessierashpool 12y ago
  So it could mean, not that dogs "use humans" but rather that they recognize humans (and specifically their trainer) as the leader of their pack, which wolves do not. I think this is absolutely correct.
- brational 12y ago
  >My guess is, if there are two humans in the room, a "recognized leader" and a "recognized non-leader", and if the non-leader knows how to solve the riddle, and the leader does not, then the riddle will never be solved because the dog will never seek the help of the non-leader. Why do you think that? Why not the dog search each available human for cues?
  - bambax 12y ago
    Because (IMHO) the dog doesn't search "humans" but "the leader", and if the leader can't help him, that's it -- it's not interested (still IMHO) in humans that it doesn't see as its master. This should be testable and I'm surprised it apparently wasn't.
tarice 12y ago
If you're wondering why the wolves weren't given the impossible food challenge at 5 months, the author notes in the comments: > @K9TrainerTina: they were, actually. however, the 5 month old wolf pups mostly just went to sleep after initially failing to get the food, so they were excluded from the analysis.

159 points by hyp0 12y ago

skazka16 12y ago

That's interesting. Just realized that I'm a tool when my kid is crying.

meric 12y ago
Relevant reading on how you're a tool when your child is crying. "When the love object is one's child, natural or adopted, one protects it. The protector will risk his life for his dependent, will want only the best for him-her, will assure him-her of his love. To lose the 'child' means great unhappiness. It means to have lost 'the thing I loved most in all the world.'" And later, "children (objects of protection) — they have power over their protectors, the men and women who care for them" http://naturalthinker.net/trl/texts/Vilar,Esther/PolygamousSex.html#twokindsoflove http://naturalthinker.net/trl/texts/Vilar,Esther/PolygamousS...?
realityking 12y ago
"For the Athenians command the rest of Greece, I command the Athenians; your mother commands me, and you command your mother." -- Themistocles (allegedly) to his son
cLeEOGPw 12y ago
Yeah, also you are your spermatozoid's tool for reproducing by the same logic.
- lumpypua 12y ago
  I mean... that is factually accurate.

sharkweek 12y ago

My own anecdotal proof of this being true - Wife and I have the seemingly dumbest labrador in the world. We adopted him at an old age (8-ish) so we didn't get the chance to raise or train him ourselves. But after we picked him up, it really only took about two days for him to settle in and learn exactly where everything was that he wanted, and he quickly learned how to signal when something was needed. He knew exactly WHAT we were good for, whether that be feeding, letting him out, play, back scratches that he can't reach, etc. We were super impressed with his ability to learn a daily routine too. "When they get home, they feed me so I'll stand by my bowl, then after I'm done they play with me so I'll grab my toy, then they take me on a walk so I'll stand by my leash"

sync 12y ago
Hey, just a quick FYI, you shouldn't play with your dog immediately after he eats, it can cause bloat, see e.g. http://www.globalspan.net/bloat.htm http://www.globalspan.net/bloat.htm
- sharkweek 12y ago
  This is good advice - just for clarity, when I say "play" with our old guy it's more like... the most slow motion version of play on earth. More like he jogs around the yard with his toy while I pretend I can't catch him.
comrh 12y ago
Definitely experienced this with older dogs my family fosters. People go straight for the puppies but there are so many great older dogs in shelters. Just have to deal with some behavioral stuff (put up with barking most of the time).
- sharkweek 12y ago
  HA - yep, our current dog is a talker, especially when I make any move toward the leash (and of course when he sees any murderous squirrels in our back yard). Honestly, I know that right now my wife and I can't have a puppy, we just don't have that kind of time. That's where older dogs fit right into our lifestyle, our current old guy just wants his two quick walks a day and a big couch he can sprawl on.

johnloeber 12y ago

Huh, interesting. This makes me think about domestication of animals: it's not just about us training or imposing our will on animals, but it's also about animals understanding that they can use us as tools, as the article puts it. I say this in jest, but it sort of makes you wonder about who is using whom. Oftentimes, I notice how pets (esp. cats[0]) are looked after 24/7 by their owners, groomed, given food, shelter, etc. and pretty much do nothing but continuously solicit pleasure. Traditionally, we like to think of animals as serving humans, but in a case like this, isn't the opposite true? [0] I note that cats are not fully domesticated animals. http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/11/man-cat-dog-best-friend-pet/382740/ http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/11/man-cat-...

lifeisstillgood 12y ago
Looking after a puppy - yes, it's stressful and far less rewarding than children. Signed, a cat person. I do however think this is a brilliant insight and in hindsight so obvious.
- psykovsky 12y ago
  I always said dogs aren't the man best friends but only put up with us for interest, kind of a "gold-digger" pet.
ekianjo 12y ago
> Traditionally, we like to think of animals as serving humans, but in a case like this, isn't the opposite true? You don't consider that animals provide emotional comfort? And make owners exercise, as well, since you need to go walk with your pets on a daily basis?
- icebraining 12y ago
  you need to go walk with your pets on a daily basis? Only for a very restricted definition of "pets"; my turtles never asked for such thing :)
- ikurei 12y ago

kristofferR 12y ago

This experiement was featured in the documentary Dogs Decoded, here: http://vimeo.com/19472436#at=1870 http://vimeo.com/19472436#at=1870 The whole documentary is worth watching, but the fox domenstication part is especially interesting.

rebootthesystem 12y ago

I've raised and trained working line German Shepherd Dogs (GSD's) most of my adult life. The degree of communication you can have with a dog is sometimes incredible. Yes, they tell you what they want and figure out ways to communicate what they need. Very soon you develop a mutual "language" of sorts. We use hand signals for everything (as well as spoken commands). So I can be at a really noisy outdoor setting and tell them what to do without uttering a word. They also learn which member of the family is best for each need. For example, they learned that cuddling-up with my young daughter is always a sure bet, they rarely ask my oldest son for that level of attention. There's also the empathy. I've seen some amazing things, like a female GSD jumping up on the bed to cuddle-up with my wife when she got a phone call with bad news. It's freaky. They know they are not allowed in my office and stop and sit or lay down at the door. But they can also read when I am receptive to them coming in for a quick hug. They actually seem to understand when I need a break. It's an amazing relationship that I couldn't do without.

agumonkey 12y ago
This was on imgur recently http://imgur.com/gallery/Octdtr3 http://imgur.com/gallery/Octdtr3 dog reacting to owner having a PTSD attack. On the other side of the spectrum I remember a friend taking her young lab back into her car because he wasn't behaving right, and that little puppy, right before closing the door, pulled the most saddest face (yet funny) I've ever seen: sad eyes, tilted head, sad sounds, everything in order for an Oscar.

CurtMonash 12y ago

Cats communicate with humans a little bit, but much less than dogs do. For example, my cat, known on Twitter as the SOFS (Small Orange Furry Sociopath), has developed a very small "vocabulary" of sounds and actions to communicate with my wife and me. But really, he's not clear and consistent about anything more sophisticated than "Pay attention to me!" or "Stop touching me there!" And there isn't a single word I'm sure he understands, although I lean toward the affirmative in the case of his name. I.e., his side of communication adds up to no more than what in a dog might be a couple of tones of bark, a fast tailwag, and the grabbing of a leash to indicate enthusiasm for the of a walk.

tonyarkles 12y ago
I was not a cat person at all until I met my partner's cat, and even then it took a while. I didn't realize it at the time, but it mostly had to do with me not understanding "cat communication". She's probably chattier than most, but we're at a point now where I can pretty much understand her various sounds and body language to figure out exactly what's wrong (I'm out of dry food, I think it's time for my soft food, my litter box is disgusting, goddamnit it's cold out and I'm not impressed, etc). We do also have the occasional chat here and there too. But yeah, definitely way less communicative than dogs.

cel1ne 12y ago

I onced talked to a environmental engineering student in Norway who was a lumberjack and hunter earlier (that education system!). He told me that the main problem with wolves was that they are really aggressive against hunting dogs. If you split up too far from your dogs chances are high that a near wolf-pack will come, kill them in a blitz-action and run away.

antimagic 12y ago

The experiment was repeated with cats, however when the plate was placed out of their reach they simply glared balefully at the slave^H^H^H^H^H human until the error was corrected.

cLeEOGPw 12y ago

> Despite the fact that they had been fully socialized, the wolves treated each of the situations as physical problems rather than social ones. Same problem arises in many humans.

evincarofautumn 12y ago
Dunno why you were downvoted. It sounds cynical when you phrase it that way, but I know many people who don’t think to ask for help when they need it.

iamgoat 12y ago

This same group is covered in the Nova episode Dogs Decoded (available on Netflix US): http://documentarystorm.com/dogs-decoded/ http://documentarystorm.com/dogs-decoded/ (starting from 31:11) I'm not sure if it's this episode or some other documentary, but I remember seeing the food experiment as well. Where wolves would not look to humans for help.

putzdown 12y ago

It's an interesting article, but its use of "tool" is spurious. It appears in the title and is plunked down in front of us on the last line, but nowhere is the case made that dogs' greater social acceptance of humans amounts to anything like tool use. Great article; too bad about "tool."

mkorfmann 12y ago

When I hear about Hawking or Musk etc. being feared of AI, I always think about how cats & dogs could have also been scared facing human evolution. But yet here they still are, obviously smarter than us since they don't do shit but sleep all day ;).

antonioevans 12y ago
Umm.. shit and eat.. sounds like all animals (humans included).
moe 12y ago
since they don't do shit but sleep all day You mean the lucky few who get to live as pets?
- pron 12y ago
  Oh, it's worse than that. The best evolutionary strategy for animals seems to be evolving into humans' pets, human food, or scavengers of human waste... Other can survive -- with human help -- by serving as entertainment.
  - tinkerrr 12y ago
    Becoming human food is an evolutionary strategy for animals?
    - LordKano 12y ago
      Natural selection would favor those organisms who live long enough to reproduce. Living into old age isn't a factor. There wouldn't be nearly as many cows, chickens or pigs on this planet if they weren't delicious. Especially pigs, humans would kill them on sight due to the tendencies of feral ones to destroy crops.
      - JoeAltmaier 12y ago
        In fact wild boar is a favorite hunter's prey. Hey! Maybe wild boar are so elusive, aggressive and ugly BECAUSE hunters like that kind! Maybe they are also using humans as tools...

jussij 12y ago

> Only in this case, the humans were the tools, and the dogs the tool-users. And this is exactly why breeds like Chihuahua, Poodles and Labradoodles have done so well. These types of dogs living in a Darwinist world, have no right to survive, but thanks to their human relationships they are thriving. The big question, is this the dog wagging the tail or the tail wagging the human?

eric_h 12y ago
Those breeds did not spring into existence from Darwinian evolution. They came about due to selective breeding by humans. Not only would they not survive without human intervention, they wouldn't exist in the first place. (And standard poodles are actually very intelligent/capable, it's the teacup sized ones that are worthless).
josefresco 12y ago
With all due respect to Chihuahuas, standard Poodles do pretty good "in the wild" and as work dogs and have a long history that doesn't involve being treated as a fashion accessory. Also, are humans exempted from a "Darwinist world"?

zcdziura 12y ago

It's actually quite funny to see this "in the wild". My parents have a two-year-old Golden Retriever that they've had since he was eight weeks old. From a very young age, he mastered the "puppy face" that melts my mother's heart and compels her to do whatever he wants: giving him food, letting him outside, cuddling, sleeping on the couch, play time, sleeping on the bed, whatever. He's a naughty puppy, but dammit if we don't love him unconditionally!

yawz 12y ago

I wonder if dog's is a predisposition towards "humans" in particular or would they also socialize with other animals such as the chimps' for instance.

tessierashpool 12y ago

when I was a kid, we had a pet dog who turned out to be half-wolf. when we learned he was half-wolf, we treated him differently, and a ton of serious behavioral problems vanished instantly. these researchers had their dogs and wolves treated identically, and concluded that "even after being raised by humans, wolves simply do not see humans as potential social partners." but my interpretation is that they learned that wolves, after being raised by humans as if they were dogs, do not see humans as potential social partners. and this distinction matters, because my family's pet dog/wolf saw us all as his subordinates, until we learned the different way to act around a wolf. if you show a wolf tons and tons of affection, like it was a dog, it thinks you're trying to kiss its ass and take a subordinate position to it. all these researchers really learned here, in my opinion, was that if you communicate to a wolf that you are not to be taken seriously as a partner, it will not take you seriously as a partner. I think the possibility absolutely remains open that researchers who had bothered to do their homework first might be able to produce results where the wolves looked to the humans for help just as often as the dogs did. if you baby a wolf in the way that we baby dogs in 2015, you are probably not creating an entirely realistic simulation of the context within which wolves and humans first began collaborating.

drzaiusapelord 12y ago
>it thinks you're trying to kiss its ass and take a subordinate position to it. This is pretty common with "bad dogs." It turns out we just can't remove all the wolf-aspects from dogs 100% of the time. It took me a while to learn that my dog is always jockeying for position and affection, to her, is submission. She's not half-wolf, but seem seems very wolf-like. (recessive genetic trait?) I have to follow a fairly strict dominance regimen to keep her from asserting dominance and barking or even biting me. When I slack off, she becomes more aggressive. Frankly, its a hassle. The more I think about domesticated pets, the less I like the idea. So many dogs are put down for behavioral issues and most pets suffer from neglect and even mental illness. I believe there was a study that most dogs are mentally ill, probably from being housebound for so long. There's something really unnatural about the whole thing. I don't think we're going to replace this dog after she dies. As much as I dislike PETA's antics, I think their official (but almost never followed by its members) policies of ending pet ownership makes a lot of sense.

bambax 12y ago

As described, the experience doesn't really show that dogs use humans as tools, but rather that they look to their face for hints as to how to behave. This is the almost-universal behavior of low-status individuals to high-status ones (in a boardroom everyone looks at the boss to know how to react to a joke). So it could mean, not that dogs "use humans" but rather that they recognize humans (and specifically their trainer) as the leader of their pack, which wolves do not. It would be interesting to do this experiment again with dogs and a human that they absolutely don't recognize as a leader (a toddler that they have never seen before, for example). My guess is, if there are two humans in the room, a "recognized leader" and a "recognized non-leader", and if the non-leader knows how to solve the riddle, and the leader does not, then the riddle will never be solved because the dog will never seek the help of the non-leader.

tessierashpool 12y ago
So it could mean, not that dogs "use humans" but rather that they recognize humans (and specifically their trainer) as the leader of their pack, which wolves do not. I think this is absolutely correct.
brational 12y ago
>My guess is, if there are two humans in the room, a "recognized leader" and a "recognized non-leader", and if the non-leader knows how to solve the riddle, and the leader does not, then the riddle will never be solved because the dog will never seek the help of the non-leader. Why do you think that? Why not the dog search each available human for cues?
- bambax 12y ago
  Because (IMHO) the dog doesn't search "humans" but "the leader", and if the leader can't help him, that's it -- it's not interested (still IMHO) in humans that it doesn't see as its master. This should be testable and I'm surprised it apparently wasn't.

tarice 12y ago

If you're wondering why the wolves weren't given the impossible food challenge at 5 months, the author notes in the comments: > @K9TrainerTina: they were, actually. however, the 5 month old wolf pups mostly just went to sleep after initially failing to get the food, so they were excluded from the analysis.