10 ms·

Well that is an interesting point of view. My experience so far( early 30's) has been exactly the opposite, most people/bosses I've meet that were successful i

by cfontes 12y ago

Well that is an interesting point of view. My experience so far( early 30's) has been exactly the opposite, most people/bosses I've meet that were successful in business were complete assholes, with several nice people working for them exclusively for the money. That has in fact made part of my life very miserable because I really don't expect anything from anybody anymore. If been tricked/robbed/scammed so many times by people I trusted that my trust is mostly gone for now, and I only expect bad things from people when I depend on them for something. (If something good happens it's awesome, but I don't count on it) Maybe I trust people more than I should have done, maybe it's the place I live... I don't know.

gatsby 12y ago
That's really unfortunate. Sorry to hear that. Out of curiosity - where do you live, and what industry are you in?
- cfontes 12y ago
  1. Brazil 2. IT
davemel37 12y ago
Don't take this the wrong way, but if everyone you are encountering is screwing you...you have some hard questions to ask yourself. My experience has been that when someone "only expects bad things from people when they depnd on them" it means one of 3 things. 1. They have a hard time accepting responsibility and taking ownership of their own problems. 2. They are running with a really bad crowd, and need to go to the library to make some new friends. 3. They project an image that lets people walk all over them. Everyone has problems that come up in their life, but if you haven't experienced nice people as being the norm... there is a better that 66% chance its something YOU ALONE CAN AND MUST CHANGE.
- rsp1984 12y ago
  I have a problem with your point 3. With all respect but I think I heard that argument before in the context of women being sexually assaulted and the way they dress being to blame...
  - davemel37 12y ago
    The correlation to this instance would be..."If someone is constantly sexually assaulted to the point where they EXPECT EVERYBODY to sexually assault them..." In that case, I would offer this same advice... ask yourself if you are projecting an image that leads everybody to sexually assault you. I am not justifying the behavior of walking over people (or assaulting people...) I am simply offering a strategy to improve your lot if people are screwing you constantly. There is a definite correlation between the image you project, how you are perceived and ultimately how you are treated. Ignoring that reality is just being naive. We are also talking about someone who is constantly being screwed, not someone who was assaulted once. Robert Ringer, in his book "Winning Through Intimidation" postulates that the result you get from a negotiation is inversely proportionate to how intimidated you are." just think about the last time you had to talk to a big VC or someone you were initimidated by, and consider whether you stood up for yourself or whether you were too scared to stand your ground. Branding and image building is all about exactly this. Creating a deliberate impression on people before they need your product.
- acomms 12y ago
  This is actually really great advice - albeit a bit harsh. #2 makes sense, but any advice on solving #1 and #3? Is this yours or did you read about this somewhere?
  - davemel37 12y ago
    #1 - Go through psychotherapy until you root out your self defeating behaviors. #3 - There is a ton you can do to foster and project and image the leads to more positive results. I would recommend reading up on human perception and branding to better understand how to project the right image. Robert Ringers, "Winning Through Intimidation" is a good anecdotal strategy... Dan Kennedy's takeaway selling is another..As is Jay Abrahams Law of Preeminence. The basic idea is to not care that much about the end result. When you raise VC money when you don't need it, you are in a much stronger position to negotiate. So too with Image, create the impression that you don't need the opportunity, deal, or whatever you are getting screwed out of and you will be in a position to demand the protections you need.
- Lawtonfogle 12y ago
  Shouldn't any group of people who will walk over you just because you project some image be considered a bad crowd? If someone is running with a bad crowd, then (as you point out) #2 is the problem. If they aren't, then #3 shouldn't be a concern anyways.
  - davemel37 12y ago
    In a utopian world you would be right...But in the real world, even the good guys might screw you if it ever turns into a situation of You Vs. Them. Ultimately, if having to choose between feeding my family or feeding yours, the choose is obvious even to nice guys. Especially when you consider that sometimes being nice to one person is being cruel to another. The key is to protect yourself...when dealing with bad people you know where you stand, so you have strong motivation to demand contracts, etc... When dealing with genuinely nice people, whom you would never dream could possibly screw you, thats were you are most vulnerable, because you are less likely to demand the contract and protections you need, and when it comes to them vs. you, they will often choose themselves... Semi Related - I read a quote from Warren Buffet that really resonated with me, "Honesty is an expensive gift. Don't expect it from cheap people."
    - brm 12y ago
      How about this quote? "I've got my family to feed" - Latrell Sprewell I hate when people make it like its a feed my family choice like they live in a hut somewhere. Above a certain level of income the "feed my family" excuse is simply that. An excuse for otherwise inexcusable behavior. Just be nice to people, its not that hard. The world especially the tech world isn't a zero sum game.
      - davemel37 12y ago
        I used to work for a guy who cared deeply about all his employees to the point where he bought me a car when mine broke down. Than the recession hit, times got tough, he had triplets, got a divorce and even had to lay off half his company. He made promises to me when times were good that he couldn't keep when times were tough. He cared about me, and yet, for a long time I thought he screwed me when he went back on a deal he made with me. Lots of people are nice, but back them into a corner (even only in their own minds) and their survival instincts will kick in. It is simply naive to think otherwise. Protect Yourself, especially with Nice people who you trust.
- cfontes 12y ago
  Not taken, but don't get me wrong. I don't mean friends/family/coworkers. I've got plenty of those that I can and have trusted. I mean Bosses and people that I've done business with on a you pay me level. In those cases there was almost nothing I could do besides filling a lawsuit and spending large amounts of money, time and sanity. I settled with the understanding that they had the upper hand and I was a fool for trusting my money/time to them. One case: Owner "Shit you are leaving??? Who is going to do XXX? Can't you stay at least until xxx so we can deliver xxx and save our asses? That is our only client right now." Me "Hum... I really need to start next week, but I will do my best" I stayed for one month more that I needed in contract, my new employer was pissed but agreed with it. In the end the Owner didn't pay me my leave that was due and was agreed to be paid and delayed the pay of that last month for 15 days. I had to threaten them with a lawsuit to get that last month payment. For me that is about people being scumbags. But valid points nonetheless.
  - davemel37 12y ago
    > I settled with the understanding that they had the upper hand Sounds like #3 is your primary concern. While some situations are beyond your control, you should put some effort into understanding perception and how you can manufacture the perception that you have the upper hand, not them. The simplest example of this is Dan Kennedy's takeaway selling technique..Basically you make it seem like you are unavailable to work with them, and because people want what they can't have, they stop thinking about whether they want you but rather how to get you. This puts you in the drivers seat.
  - themodelplumber 12y ago
    That sucks. I thought I was the only guy who had to have those kinds of experiences. :-) In my case it was years ago, and since then my situation has improved dramatically. The things that seemed to help were: 1) Identifying the kinds of people I worked well with in the past and pitching those kinds of people on projects (I did some of this by learning the Meyers-Briggs function stack, which unfortunately doesn't have an axis of evil but is otherwise helpful in finding new clients who are somewhat similar to clients I liked in the past; ENFPs are a perennial favorite) 2) Identifying non-profits and other less rip-offy types of clients and showing them how I could help them 3) Saving enough money that I didn't have to work with any given client 4) Establishing firm policies like "You will pay 100% down if X and Y conditions are not met or do not apply, or if the total is below $N; otherwise 50% down and 50% prior to delivery" 5) Doing background-checking on all new clients, especially if they have fired one of my kind before (I usually call up the fired guy). #4 really rides on your reputation, so you may wish to have references on hand to give to potential clients. I'm celebrating my ninth year as a solo freelancer in rural California and things couldn't get much better, so I hope this helps you somehow.
- learnstats2 12y ago
  I worked in an industry which was tightly squeezed by government regulation. Every business I know which was run honestly and reputably had to close. Those that remain are exclusively run by people who are willing to break any rules and any laws as it suits them and are intelligent enough to do so when they can get away with it. I feel very jaded by this experience. Is this what people really mean when they talk about 'hustle'? Is it not possible for an honest person to run a business? In another context you would call these people sociopaths. They are happy to screw employees - and the conditions are currently just right for them to do that. Good people who have skills or personal interest in that industry now have to work for that kind of person. They have no realistic choice. You alone can and must change - we can agree - but your three options are not true to life.
  - MrBuddyCasino 12y ago
    Now I'm curious what industry that might be, and how government regulation killed it?
- crpatino 12y ago
  What about? 4. You've been burned badly/recently enough by your interactions with a minority of jerks, and your perception is biased.
  - cfontes 12y ago
    Might be it... time will tell.
tdees40 12y ago
I work in finance, and the process by which senior executives are selected literally screens to ensure assholery. It's like a job requirement.
- orionblastar 12y ago
  Like Ebeneezer Scrooge? Low on humanity and cheer, high in greed and making people work extra hours for no extra pay?
drzaiusapelord 12y ago
I suspect, as someone early in his career, what you interpret as "asshole," pg interprets as niceness. From pg's perspective, those whip-cracking middle managers are getting the productivity they need to make his or Ron's investments increase in value. You're on the receiving end of some harshness, but the money-men don't care. Why should they? Its amusing when we play the moralism card in business. I'm fairly personable and I'm sure would be considered nice, but if tomorrow I opened the worst sweatshop in Vietnam and turned $10,000 into $1m I would be praised. pg or my investors wouldn't care about the social issues of the young people working in my sweatshop, or if they cared, it wouldn't be enough to deem me a villain. They get to meet a fairly nice guy who can turn a little money into a lot. I'd brand myself a fashion entrepreneur, write some pretentious blog postings careful to never address labor concerns, and be done with it. The nitty gritty isn't on a level where investors and other money-men care about. They care about my workers as much as they care about the electrons in my CPU that powers my website. Its works, right? It makes money? Fine. You're "nice." No, I am absolutely not. I own an abusive sweatshop. This is one of the problems of judging people by their forward facing personality. Its easy to be personable and charismatic when you have money or social capital. I have people below me who have to be mean. I don't need to be. The same way Putin kisses babies and tells jokes on TV while his troops murder civilians and annex land in Ukraine with impunity. There's a meta narrative here that's concerning as well. Programmers tend to be INTJ males. We have bad social skills and are often naïve. What does this say about charisma and those who can use it effectively? Are we easy to game? I think so. pg's essays are usually top notch except when they're about soft social skills. These last two are questionable, at least to me. I feel the niceness question is a bit more complex than pg suggests, and often it fits not only into a hard game-theory framework but also a soft social skill framework that encompasses everything from salesmanship to how we talk to power or act when we are the ones with power.
- coldtea 12y ago
  A thousand times that. And we are being conditioned to think of niceness in the personal level, and even worse judge with superficial BS like nice clothes, clean appereance, etc. A well behaved rich person will immediately strike as "nicer" (with the meaning of "good" too) than a poor guy on the street or a homeless person, even if the latter has a heart of gold and the first is a huge negative for society. If the rich person is also famous, it's as if people lose their mind to its "aura". This is probably because as a species we were "evolved" to look for immediate personal threat (attack etc), which looks more probable with a homeless person than with a well dressed oil baron or ruthless businessman. But the glitch is that we use that to also judge for "goodness" and morality.
guelo 12y ago
pg's theory is that transparency and unpredictability is what is supposedly making nice investors successful in startup-land. Maybe your industry is not sufficiently transparent or unpredictable to help the nice people rise to the top.

by cfontes 12y ago

gatsby 12y ago

That's really unfortunate. Sorry to hear that. Out of curiosity - where do you live, and what industry are you in?

cfontes 12y ago
1. Brazil 2. IT

davemel37 12y ago

Don't take this the wrong way, but if everyone you are encountering is screwing you...you have some hard questions to ask yourself. My experience has been that when someone "only expects bad things from people when they depnd on them" it means one of 3 things. 1. They have a hard time accepting responsibility and taking ownership of their own problems. 2. They are running with a really bad crowd, and need to go to the library to make some new friends. 3. They project an image that lets people walk all over them. Everyone has problems that come up in their life, but if you haven't experienced nice people as being the norm... there is a better that 66% chance its something YOU ALONE CAN AND MUST CHANGE.

rsp1984 12y ago
I have a problem with your point 3. With all respect but I think I heard that argument before in the context of women being sexually assaulted and the way they dress being to blame...
- davemel37 12y ago
  The correlation to this instance would be..."If someone is constantly sexually assaulted to the point where they EXPECT EVERYBODY to sexually assault them..." In that case, I would offer this same advice... ask yourself if you are projecting an image that leads everybody to sexually assault you. I am not justifying the behavior of walking over people (or assaulting people...) I am simply offering a strategy to improve your lot if people are screwing you constantly. There is a definite correlation between the image you project, how you are perceived and ultimately how you are treated. Ignoring that reality is just being naive. We are also talking about someone who is constantly being screwed, not someone who was assaulted once. Robert Ringer, in his book "Winning Through Intimidation" postulates that the result you get from a negotiation is inversely proportionate to how intimidated you are." just think about the last time you had to talk to a big VC or someone you were initimidated by, and consider whether you stood up for yourself or whether you were too scared to stand your ground. Branding and image building is all about exactly this. Creating a deliberate impression on people before they need your product.
acomms 12y ago
This is actually really great advice - albeit a bit harsh. #2 makes sense, but any advice on solving #1 and #3? Is this yours or did you read about this somewhere?
- davemel37 12y ago
  #1 - Go through psychotherapy until you root out your self defeating behaviors. #3 - There is a ton you can do to foster and project and image the leads to more positive results. I would recommend reading up on human perception and branding to better understand how to project the right image. Robert Ringers, "Winning Through Intimidation" is a good anecdotal strategy... Dan Kennedy's takeaway selling is another..As is Jay Abrahams Law of Preeminence. The basic idea is to not care that much about the end result. When you raise VC money when you don't need it, you are in a much stronger position to negotiate. So too with Image, create the impression that you don't need the opportunity, deal, or whatever you are getting screwed out of and you will be in a position to demand the protections you need.
Lawtonfogle 12y ago
Shouldn't any group of people who will walk over you just because you project some image be considered a bad crowd? If someone is running with a bad crowd, then (as you point out) #2 is the problem. If they aren't, then #3 shouldn't be a concern anyways.
- davemel37 12y ago
  In a utopian world you would be right...But in the real world, even the good guys might screw you if it ever turns into a situation of You Vs. Them. Ultimately, if having to choose between feeding my family or feeding yours, the choose is obvious even to nice guys. Especially when you consider that sometimes being nice to one person is being cruel to another. The key is to protect yourself...when dealing with bad people you know where you stand, so you have strong motivation to demand contracts, etc... When dealing with genuinely nice people, whom you would never dream could possibly screw you, thats were you are most vulnerable, because you are less likely to demand the contract and protections you need, and when it comes to them vs. you, they will often choose themselves... Semi Related - I read a quote from Warren Buffet that really resonated with me, "Honesty is an expensive gift. Don't expect it from cheap people."
  - brm 12y ago
    How about this quote? "I've got my family to feed" - Latrell Sprewell I hate when people make it like its a feed my family choice like they live in a hut somewhere. Above a certain level of income the "feed my family" excuse is simply that. An excuse for otherwise inexcusable behavior. Just be nice to people, its not that hard. The world especially the tech world isn't a zero sum game.
    - davemel37 12y ago
      I used to work for a guy who cared deeply about all his employees to the point where he bought me a car when mine broke down. Than the recession hit, times got tough, he had triplets, got a divorce and even had to lay off half his company. He made promises to me when times were good that he couldn't keep when times were tough. He cared about me, and yet, for a long time I thought he screwed me when he went back on a deal he made with me. Lots of people are nice, but back them into a corner (even only in their own minds) and their survival instincts will kick in. It is simply naive to think otherwise. Protect Yourself, especially with Nice people who you trust.
cfontes 12y ago
Not taken, but don't get me wrong. I don't mean friends/family/coworkers. I've got plenty of those that I can and have trusted. I mean Bosses and people that I've done business with on a you pay me level. In those cases there was almost nothing I could do besides filling a lawsuit and spending large amounts of money, time and sanity. I settled with the understanding that they had the upper hand and I was a fool for trusting my money/time to them. One case: Owner "Shit you are leaving??? Who is going to do XXX? Can't you stay at least until xxx so we can deliver xxx and save our asses? That is our only client right now." Me "Hum... I really need to start next week, but I will do my best" I stayed for one month more that I needed in contract, my new employer was pissed but agreed with it. In the end the Owner didn't pay me my leave that was due and was agreed to be paid and delayed the pay of that last month for 15 days. I had to threaten them with a lawsuit to get that last month payment. For me that is about people being scumbags. But valid points nonetheless.
- davemel37 12y ago
  > I settled with the understanding that they had the upper hand Sounds like #3 is your primary concern. While some situations are beyond your control, you should put some effort into understanding perception and how you can manufacture the perception that you have the upper hand, not them. The simplest example of this is Dan Kennedy's takeaway selling technique..Basically you make it seem like you are unavailable to work with them, and because people want what they can't have, they stop thinking about whether they want you but rather how to get you. This puts you in the drivers seat.
- themodelplumber 12y ago
  That sucks. I thought I was the only guy who had to have those kinds of experiences. :-) In my case it was years ago, and since then my situation has improved dramatically. The things that seemed to help were: 1) Identifying the kinds of people I worked well with in the past and pitching those kinds of people on projects (I did some of this by learning the Meyers-Briggs function stack, which unfortunately doesn't have an axis of evil but is otherwise helpful in finding new clients who are somewhat similar to clients I liked in the past; ENFPs are a perennial favorite) 2) Identifying non-profits and other less rip-offy types of clients and showing them how I could help them 3) Saving enough money that I didn't have to work with any given client 4) Establishing firm policies like "You will pay 100% down if X and Y conditions are not met or do not apply, or if the total is below $N; otherwise 50% down and 50% prior to delivery" 5) Doing background-checking on all new clients, especially if they have fired one of my kind before (I usually call up the fired guy). #4 really rides on your reputation, so you may wish to have references on hand to give to potential clients. I'm celebrating my ninth year as a solo freelancer in rural California and things couldn't get much better, so I hope this helps you somehow.
learnstats2 12y ago
I worked in an industry which was tightly squeezed by government regulation. Every business I know which was run honestly and reputably had to close. Those that remain are exclusively run by people who are willing to break any rules and any laws as it suits them and are intelligent enough to do so when they can get away with it. I feel very jaded by this experience. Is this what people really mean when they talk about 'hustle'? Is it not possible for an honest person to run a business? In another context you would call these people sociopaths. They are happy to screw employees - and the conditions are currently just right for them to do that. Good people who have skills or personal interest in that industry now have to work for that kind of person. They have no realistic choice. You alone can and must change - we can agree - but your three options are not true to life.
- MrBuddyCasino 12y ago
  Now I'm curious what industry that might be, and how government regulation killed it?
crpatino 12y ago
What about? 4. You've been burned badly/recently enough by your interactions with a minority of jerks, and your perception is biased.
- cfontes 12y ago
  Might be it... time will tell.

tdees40 12y ago

I work in finance, and the process by which senior executives are selected literally screens to ensure assholery. It's like a job requirement.

orionblastar 12y ago
Like Ebeneezer Scrooge? Low on humanity and cheer, high in greed and making people work extra hours for no extra pay?

drzaiusapelord 12y ago

I suspect, as someone early in his career, what you interpret as "asshole," pg interprets as niceness. From pg's perspective, those whip-cracking middle managers are getting the productivity they need to make his or Ron's investments increase in value. You're on the receiving end of some harshness, but the money-men don't care. Why should they? Its amusing when we play the moralism card in business. I'm fairly personable and I'm sure would be considered nice, but if tomorrow I opened the worst sweatshop in Vietnam and turned $10,000 into $1m I would be praised. pg or my investors wouldn't care about the social issues of the young people working in my sweatshop, or if they cared, it wouldn't be enough to deem me a villain. They get to meet a fairly nice guy who can turn a little money into a lot. I'd brand myself a fashion entrepreneur, write some pretentious blog postings careful to never address labor concerns, and be done with it. The nitty gritty isn't on a level where investors and other money-men care about. They care about my workers as much as they care about the electrons in my CPU that powers my website. Its works, right? It makes money? Fine. You're "nice." No, I am absolutely not. I own an abusive sweatshop. This is one of the problems of judging people by their forward facing personality. Its easy to be personable and charismatic when you have money or social capital. I have people below me who have to be mean. I don't need to be. The same way Putin kisses babies and tells jokes on TV while his troops murder civilians and annex land in Ukraine with impunity. There's a meta narrative here that's concerning as well. Programmers tend to be INTJ males. We have bad social skills and are often naïve. What does this say about charisma and those who can use it effectively? Are we easy to game? I think so. pg's essays are usually top notch except when they're about soft social skills. These last two are questionable, at least to me. I feel the niceness question is a bit more complex than pg suggests, and often it fits not only into a hard game-theory framework but also a soft social skill framework that encompasses everything from salesmanship to how we talk to power or act when we are the ones with power.

coldtea 12y ago
A thousand times that. And we are being conditioned to think of niceness in the personal level, and even worse judge with superficial BS like nice clothes, clean appereance, etc. A well behaved rich person will immediately strike as "nicer" (with the meaning of "good" too) than a poor guy on the street or a homeless person, even if the latter has a heart of gold and the first is a huge negative for society. If the rich person is also famous, it's as if people lose their mind to its "aura". This is probably because as a species we were "evolved" to look for immediate personal threat (attack etc), which looks more probable with a homeless person than with a well dressed oil baron or ruthless businessman. But the glitch is that we use that to also judge for "goodness" and morality.

guelo 12y ago

pg's theory is that transparency and unpredictability is what is supposedly making nice investors successful in startup-land. Maybe your industry is not sufficiently transparent or unpredictable to help the nice people rise to the top.