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I actually think that this comment highlights that centralization can come in quite sneakily. Email's a great example. You could set up your own email server,

I actually think that this comment highlights that centralization can come in quite sneakily. Email's a great example. You could set up your own email server, but doing so in such a way that you don't harm your ability to get emails into people's inboxes is problematic in all sorts of ways: you've got a good chance of being classified as spam. So even though the system is decentralized, the fact that most users are centralized within a few big players means that those parties can unilaterally impose rules that cut off users who don't participate in the centralized ecosystem. In short: if Coinbase becomes sufficiently large, they could have the de facto power to disadvantage people who choose to use bitcoin outside of major centralized services. This isn't to say that a system can't tend more or less to centralization: sure, it can, and Bitcoin could have a strong tendency to make unilaterally enforced centralization hard. But even good technical solutions are vulnerable to social forces, and social forces can be very powerful.

Meekro 12y ago
I think you're overstating how much private mail servers are penalized. I've run several on colocated machines, and delivering emails to the major providers has never been a problem. You have to make sure that your colo gives you IP addresses that aren't on any blacklists, but other than that it's fine.
oleganza 12y ago
Email is decentralized, that means I can quit Gmail any time I want and use another service. Or even start my own. Git is decentralized, that means I can quit Github any time I want and use another service to host my repositories. Bitcoin is the same: I'm not locked into Coinbase, I can switch them for another service, personal wallet on a phone, a hardware wallet, or a combination of them. Move my coins to a company in another jurisdiction etc. Just the very fact of how easy it is to switch, creates a pressure on your provider and makes them work harder. US banking is not decentralized. I cannot simply take dollars out to some other service or wallet. Moving them takes a lot of time, there is no privacy, there is suspicious reports and interrogation everywhere, civil forfeiture laws and for another jurisdiction, I have to sell dollars for another currency which incurs fees, risks etc. In short: Bitcoin is like Git, fiat money and banking is like CVS.
- oco101 12y ago
  lol you lost me at gmail but just for the fun of it.. so that your definition of decentralization ... Could you move your money out of MtGox ??
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - tonyhb 12y ago
    Could you move more than the FDIC insured amount from Goldman Sachs? Or Lloyds in the UK? Luckily, with Bitcoin, it's trade what you can lose. Keep the rest by yourself. Yes, there were some losses, but it's a trading platform. Somewhat expected. If you don't believe me research what happened with the Swiss Franc recently. It has closed a lot of FX trading platforms from sheer losses [1]. This isn't limited to bitcoin — that's a naive and ignorant point of view. [1] http://www.bidnessetc.com/32853-swiss-franc-shock-highlight-gaps-in-fx-regulations/ http://www.bidnessetc.com/32853-swiss-franc-shock-highlight-...
  - oafitupa 12y ago
    One day blockchain.info stopped working for me (I think they mistakenly banned lots of IPs). And yes, I simply withdrew my money out of it. I just loaded my private key in a mobile wallet and swept the coins. Apparently Coinbase now offers a multi-signature feature, so people could do the same.
- snitko 12y ago
  I'm a little concerned that over time, it is going to become more difficult and less private to move money out of Coinbase. Even now they ask you "where do you send your money? is it another website?" when you try to withdraw. This is unacceptable.
  - oafitupa 12y ago
    Of course for some of us it's unacceptable. And we can simply not use it. Personally, I have never even used exchanges like MtGox, only Localbitcoins.

Meekro 12y ago

I think you're overstating how much private mail servers are penalized. I've run several on colocated machines, and delivering emails to the major providers has never been a problem. You have to make sure that your colo gives you IP addresses that aren't on any blacklists, but other than that it's fine.

oleganza 12y ago

Email is decentralized, that means I can quit Gmail any time I want and use another service. Or even start my own. Git is decentralized, that means I can quit Github any time I want and use another service to host my repositories. Bitcoin is the same: I'm not locked into Coinbase, I can switch them for another service, personal wallet on a phone, a hardware wallet, or a combination of them. Move my coins to a company in another jurisdiction etc. Just the very fact of how easy it is to switch, creates a pressure on your provider and makes them work harder. US banking is not decentralized. I cannot simply take dollars out to some other service or wallet. Moving them takes a lot of time, there is no privacy, there is suspicious reports and interrogation everywhere, civil forfeiture laws and for another jurisdiction, I have to sell dollars for another currency which incurs fees, risks etc. In short: Bitcoin is like Git, fiat money and banking is like CVS.

oco101 12y ago
lol you lost me at gmail but just for the fun of it.. so that your definition of decentralization ... Could you move your money out of MtGox ??
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- tonyhb 12y ago
  Could you move more than the FDIC insured amount from Goldman Sachs? Or Lloyds in the UK? Luckily, with Bitcoin, it's trade what you can lose. Keep the rest by yourself. Yes, there were some losses, but it's a trading platform. Somewhat expected. If you don't believe me research what happened with the Swiss Franc recently. It has closed a lot of FX trading platforms from sheer losses [1]. This isn't limited to bitcoin — that's a naive and ignorant point of view. [1] http://www.bidnessetc.com/32853-swiss-franc-shock-highlight-gaps-in-fx-regulations/ http://www.bidnessetc.com/32853-swiss-franc-shock-highlight-...
- oafitupa 12y ago
  One day blockchain.info stopped working for me (I think they mistakenly banned lots of IPs). And yes, I simply withdrew my money out of it. I just loaded my private key in a mobile wallet and swept the coins. Apparently Coinbase now offers a multi-signature feature, so people could do the same.
snitko 12y ago
I'm a little concerned that over time, it is going to become more difficult and less private to move money out of Coinbase. Even now they ask you "where do you send your money? is it another website?" when you try to withdraw. This is unacceptable.
- oafitupa 12y ago
  Of course for some of us it's unacceptable. And we can simply not use it. Personally, I have never even used exchanges like MtGox, only Localbitcoins.