4 ms·

> The login screen is pretty self-contained and we don’t have to worry about application compatibility or support for exotic devices. And we will get Wayland to

by mst 12y ago

> The login screen is pretty self-contained and we don’t have to worry about application compatibility or support for exotic devices. And we will get Wayland to run on (almost) all systems this way, which should give a lot more exposure and help shake out lingering bugs and hardware issues. Let's test the exciting new technology by making it a dependency of ... being able to log in. I. Um. This seems ... unwise.

adrianlmm 12y ago
What do you sugest?
- renox 12y ago
  The reverse would be wiser: put the login session on Wayland after the Wayland session is stable: if there are bugs in the Wayland session the users could easily use other sessions.. But Fedora devs aren't especially known for caring about the users' pain, remember KDE4.0?
  - bkor 12y ago
    The Wayland session is already available. It just lacks features. That's why the next step is the login manager. Though from reading the latest discussion on fedora-devel, there might be a few complications to correctly automatically fall back to X.
    - renox 12y ago
      > It just lacks features. Does it work on NVidia closed source driver? I thought that this wasn't the case yet..
      - bkor 12y ago
        I only learned this recently: Red Hat is working with NVidia, only expected to work around Fedora 23 release. I've switched quite a while ago to the nouveau driver. Next machine will probably have an Intel. I'm waiting for something which is quiet, doesn't use too much power and can drive an Ultra HD monitor at 60fps without any hacks (seems to require HDMI 2.0).
bkor 12y ago
This is more thought out than it might appear. In various Fedora releases you can already test GNOME under Wayland. Due to Wayland, certain functionality is not available. The one case which is not resolved yet is the "color picker" from anywhere on the screen. This as security wise you don't want applications to determine the screen content of other applications. So the switch is actually gradual: 1. Now: Optional GNOME Wayland session (with slightly less functionality) 2. Wayland login session in development distribution 3. QA testing (Fedora has a big QA team) 4. Go/no go decision 5. GNOME Wayland login session in stable distribution 6. Repeat 2-5 for Wayland as default session (for next distribution version) The login session doesn't use the functionality that might be different between releases. That is why to proceed with testing Wayland, login session is a better test than knowingly reducing functionality. I'm aiming to also have the Mageia development version switch to using Wayland for GDM. A lot of people use that and we (Mageia) often notice bugs quite quickly.
- reidrac 12y ago
  The problem is that the process is good for the software but it won't be good for the users in the early iterations. I use Fedora at home and I love it, but sometimes it is a little bit too experimental and in this case I'm afraid it might not be usable (Fedora has shipped broken things in the past that I would qualify as "release blockers", but the release team have a different opinion). Things settle in the sweet spot (eventually), but with every upgrade is like "what will be broken this time", and that's not a pleasant end-user experience.
- mst 12y ago
  If 3+4 are done sensibly, it's possibly not that terrible. But I think in that case there should be a boot option of some sort to get a non-wayland login session, just in case.
alexlarsson 12y ago
The login screen is much simpler and controlled than the full session. Its much more likely to work than a full session where you can run any application and do anything. Sounds like a pretty good starting point, much better than introducing it for the whole session. I'm sure there will be a way to disable it to work around issues, but this way we get broad testing while not risking the stability of people actually trying to get their real work done (after logging in).

by mst 12y ago

adrianlmm 12y ago

What do you sugest?

renox 12y ago
The reverse would be wiser: put the login session on Wayland after the Wayland session is stable: if there are bugs in the Wayland session the users could easily use other sessions.. But Fedora devs aren't especially known for caring about the users' pain, remember KDE4.0?
- bkor 12y ago
  The Wayland session is already available. It just lacks features. That's why the next step is the login manager. Though from reading the latest discussion on fedora-devel, there might be a few complications to correctly automatically fall back to X.
  - renox 12y ago
    > It just lacks features. Does it work on NVidia closed source driver? I thought that this wasn't the case yet..
    - bkor 12y ago
      I only learned this recently: Red Hat is working with NVidia, only expected to work around Fedora 23 release. I've switched quite a while ago to the nouveau driver. Next machine will probably have an Intel. I'm waiting for something which is quiet, doesn't use too much power and can drive an Ultra HD monitor at 60fps without any hacks (seems to require HDMI 2.0).

bkor 12y ago

This is more thought out than it might appear. In various Fedora releases you can already test GNOME under Wayland. Due to Wayland, certain functionality is not available. The one case which is not resolved yet is the "color picker" from anywhere on the screen. This as security wise you don't want applications to determine the screen content of other applications. So the switch is actually gradual: 1. Now: Optional GNOME Wayland session (with slightly less functionality) 2. Wayland login session in development distribution 3. QA testing (Fedora has a big QA team) 4. Go/no go decision 5. GNOME Wayland login session in stable distribution 6. Repeat 2-5 for Wayland as default session (for next distribution version) The login session doesn't use the functionality that might be different between releases. That is why to proceed with testing Wayland, login session is a better test than knowingly reducing functionality. I'm aiming to also have the Mageia development version switch to using Wayland for GDM. A lot of people use that and we (Mageia) often notice bugs quite quickly.

reidrac 12y ago
The problem is that the process is good for the software but it won't be good for the users in the early iterations. I use Fedora at home and I love it, but sometimes it is a little bit too experimental and in this case I'm afraid it might not be usable (Fedora has shipped broken things in the past that I would qualify as "release blockers", but the release team have a different opinion). Things settle in the sweet spot (eventually), but with every upgrade is like "what will be broken this time", and that's not a pleasant end-user experience.
mst 12y ago
If 3+4 are done sensibly, it's possibly not that terrible. But I think in that case there should be a boot option of some sort to get a non-wayland login session, just in case.

alexlarsson 12y ago

The login screen is much simpler and controlled than the full session. Its much more likely to work than a full session where you can run any application and do anything. Sounds like a pretty good starting point, much better than introducing it for the whole session. I'm sure there will be a way to disable it to work around issues, but this way we get broad testing while not risking the stability of people actually trying to get their real work done (after logging in).