5 ms·
Maybe it seems like I'm nitpicking, but I think most of the attacks against the 54 number are strawmen. Here's the actual figures that were claimed (from [1]):
by csandreasen 12y ago
Maybe it seems like I'm nitpicking, but I think most of the attacks against the 54 number are strawmen. Here's the actual figures that were claimed (from [1]):
Gen. Keith Alexander said these programs enabled the United States to disrupt 54 "events," 42 of which "involved disrupted plots."
Of those 54:
12 involved cases of material support to terrorists;
50 lead to arrests or detentions;
25 occurred in Europe;
11 were in Asia;
5 were in Africa;
13 had a homeland nexus.
Forty-one of the terrorist activities did not involve events in the United States, Alexander said.
Alexander went on to say that in 53 of the 54 cases, data collected under Section 702 provided the initial tip to "unravel the threat stream." He said that almost half of terrorist reporting comes from Section 702, ...
... and the associated infographic: [2]. Your own link states that the NSA claimed 42 plots and 12 instances of material support. Senator Leahy's quote speaks more to both the media game of telephone than the NSA's claims and the fact that the figures from the Section 215 program (bulk phone metadata) were being conflated with the Section 702 program (PRISM).
As a result, this article and a whole slew of other articles try to tie the 54 plots in with the Section 215 program, when right from the beginning General Alexander was stating that the overwhelming majority came from Section 702 collection. Draw what conclusion you may want from those numbers - three commissions have done so over the last year and concluded that PRISM was incredibly valuable[3], but the bulk phone records not so much[4][5] - but, that doesn't say much about the 54 number.
[1] http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06/27/19175466-nsa-chief-says-surveillance-programs-helped-foil-54-plots http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06/27/19175466-nsa-chie...
[2] http://www.propublica.org/documents/item/802269-untitled0001.html http://www.propublica.org/documents/item/802269-untitled0001...
[3] http://www.pclob.gov/Library/702-Report-2.pdf http://www.pclob.gov/Library/702-Report-2.pdf
[4] http://www.pclob.gov/library/215-Report_on_the_Telephone_Records_Program.pdf http://www.pclob.gov/library/215-Report_on_the_Telephone_Rec...
[5] http://www.lawfareblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Final-Report-RG.pdf http://www.lawfareblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Final-...
- spammyusername 12y agoMaybe it's nitpicking, maybe not. But you're saying one unconstitutional, immoral, wasteful program has been deemed useful by a corrupt and inept body, and the other hasn't. That's a really great idea I'll consider carefully.
- csandreasen 12y agoSo the Privacy and Civil Liberties Oversight Board is a corrupt and inept body? I must have missed that...
- spammyusername 12y agoThat's hilarious. It doesn't sound like you know anything about the PCLOB. This group of political appointees presided over the genesis of the largest surveillance/propaganda program in the history of the world. Corrupt and inept seems fair.
- csandreasen 12y agoA board of political appointees confirmed by Congress that didn't exist until 2008 presided over the genesis of the largest surveillance/propaganda program in the history of the world? Now I'm curious...
- spammyusername 12y ago> 2008 That's the wrong date. Again, it doesn't seem you know anything about the PCLOB. Basic information is on Wikipedia, if you ever look. Do you have any point besides making endless discursive asides about how much you simultaneously believe and disbelieve the PCLOB? I'm starting to think conversing with you is a complete waste of time.
- csandreasen 12y ago> Basic information is on Wikipedia, if you ever look. First member was appointed in January 2008. Go reread it. > Do you have any point besides making endless discursive asides ... I'm starting to think conversing with you is a complete waste of time. My thoughts exactly - It's not worth my time conversing with someone whose argument is basically "No, you're wrong. You obviously don't know anything about the subject." It's been fun - I'm not going to waste any further time on this thread.