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Some of the disturbing arguments here demonstrate just how far we have to go before women are celebrated as equals in technology. Here's one techtalk I found t

Some of the disturbing arguments here demonstrate just how far we have to go before women are celebrated as equals in technology. Here's one techtalk I found to be quite enlightening: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmROmy5jT80 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmROmy5jT80 Google TechTalks - Dr. Cornelia Brunner Associate Director, Center for Children & Technology Education Development Anyone have others they would recommend?

steveklabnik 17y ago
Technology is possibly one of the most meritocratic fields that there are. Programmers and scientists respect results, and generally are poor with the surrounding social issues. I've never heard anyone say "oh, yeah, that paper, too bad it's authored by a woman." or "I'd love to accept this patch, but I'm not gonna bother looking, a girl wrote it." I've won (well, second place, actually) a programming competition with a female partner. I won't deny that there are few women around here. I think there were 14ish in my program? But the problem won't be solved if you run around trying to make special rules for the girls.
- antonovka 17y ago
  I won't deny that there are few women around here. I think there were 14ish in my program? But the problem won't be solved if you run around trying to make special rules for the girls. "Don't hire strippers. No lap dances." aren't special rules for the girls. Technology is possibly one of the most meritocratic fields that there are. Yes, clearly there are no social issues and sexism in technology, which is why we get blog posts about it from women who take issue with blatant examples of sexism in technology. Sarcasm aside, I can't recommend the above video highly enough.
  - steveklabnik 17y ago
    > "Don't hire strippers. No lap dances." aren't special rules for the girls. The way that you're presenting it is, however. "Don't hire strippers because it makes the girls feel uncomfortable." is the subtext here.
    - antonovka 17y ago
      The way that you're presenting it is, however. "Don't hire strippers because it makes the girls feel uncomfortable." is the subtext here. So? You're saying male strippers wouldn't make the men feel uncomfortable?
      - steveklabnik 17y ago
        It may, it may not. Cultures are totally different. For instance, I was watching some Torchwood last night. The amount of sex and actual nudity suprised me, because I forgot that other places don't have hangups about such things. The culture is different, rear male nudity is completely normal on the BBC at 9pm, apparently. And that's fine. Their hometown, they get to make the rules. Presenting hypothetical questions about male strippers is a non-sequitor. What we're discussing is the appropriateness of some girls in slutty clothing at an event. Which is apparently par for the course in that part of the world, so, whatever. I would argue that hiring strippers in any capacity here in America would be a poor idea, because _everyone_ would feel uncomfortable.
        antonovka 17y ago
        Ridiculous cultural relativism can be applied to almost any transgression. If you don't like naked males, don't watch Torchwood. If you want to be part of the technology community, but feel uncomfortable with strippers and lap-dances, too bad?
        steveklabnik 17y ago
        I have this feeling that we're just going to have to agree to disagree. Good luck.
        antonovka 17y ago
        I have this feeling that we're just going to have to agree to disagree. That may be, but before you abandon the question, I suggest watching that Google Techtalk.
  - Tichy 17y ago
    Do you seriously think the fewer number of women in IT is because of strippers and lap dancers? Even though this is the first IT event I heard of that includes lap dancers. But I guess all these years women were fearing this day that there might be strippers at an event with computer nerds, at the other end of the world nevertheless, so they chose to study history of arts instead.
    - antonovka 17y ago
      No, I think that the lack of women in IT is partially due to an endemic lack of social inclusion, amply demonstrated by hiring strippers to give lap dances at a technology conference.
      - Tichy 17y ago
        Most tech people never even have a chance to practice social inclusion with tech aspiring females. I think the problem starts before that (if it is a problem - just like the missing male nurses).
- nl 17y ago
  Take a look at the second and third picture again. I can understand (if not agree with) the argument that dancing girls are a culturally acceptable form of entertainment in Taiwan. However, judging from those pictures this was more akin to lapdancing than dancing on a stage. I cannot believe that anyone would try and say that isn't associated with sex. That isn't wrong in itself, but it does mean that it's a form of entertainment aimed at a specific gender preference. While I do not preclude that many female developers are attracted to females, statistics show that on average a (much) greater proportion of males prefer females as a sexual partner than females do. That means their entertainment was primarily aimed at men. I believe that Yahoo should not discriminate based on race, religion or gender, and this bias is a form of discrimination. QED (There are other genuine concerns about the objectification of women as sex objects at a technology event, but I believe that the above argument is sufficient to show that it is wrong)
- chromatic 17y ago
  > I've never heard anyone say "oh, yeah, that paper, too bad it's authored by a woman." I have, if you substitute "book" for "paper". Now that we've traded anecdotes, where does that leave the discussion? > ... the problem won't be solved if you run around trying to make special rules for the girls. What special rule do you have in mind? I would feel uncomfortable with partially-unclothed dancers of any gender at a Bar Camp or hack day regardless of cultural norms. I suspect I'm not the only person who would feel that way, and I'm very comfortable suggesting that conference organizers should avoid hiring said dancers.

steveklabnik 17y ago

Technology is possibly one of the most meritocratic fields that there are. Programmers and scientists respect results, and generally are poor with the surrounding social issues. I've never heard anyone say "oh, yeah, that paper, too bad it's authored by a woman." or "I'd love to accept this patch, but I'm not gonna bother looking, a girl wrote it." I've won (well, second place, actually) a programming competition with a female partner. I won't deny that there are few women around here. I think there were 14ish in my program? But the problem won't be solved if you run around trying to make special rules for the girls.

antonovka 17y ago
I won't deny that there are few women around here. I think there were 14ish in my program? But the problem won't be solved if you run around trying to make special rules for the girls. "Don't hire strippers. No lap dances." aren't special rules for the girls. Technology is possibly one of the most meritocratic fields that there are. Yes, clearly there are no social issues and sexism in technology, which is why we get blog posts about it from women who take issue with blatant examples of sexism in technology. Sarcasm aside, I can't recommend the above video highly enough.
- steveklabnik 17y ago
  > "Don't hire strippers. No lap dances." aren't special rules for the girls. The way that you're presenting it is, however. "Don't hire strippers because it makes the girls feel uncomfortable." is the subtext here.
  - antonovka 17y ago
    The way that you're presenting it is, however. "Don't hire strippers because it makes the girls feel uncomfortable." is the subtext here. So? You're saying male strippers wouldn't make the men feel uncomfortable?
    - steveklabnik 17y ago
      It may, it may not. Cultures are totally different. For instance, I was watching some Torchwood last night. The amount of sex and actual nudity suprised me, because I forgot that other places don't have hangups about such things. The culture is different, rear male nudity is completely normal on the BBC at 9pm, apparently. And that's fine. Their hometown, they get to make the rules. Presenting hypothetical questions about male strippers is a non-sequitor. What we're discussing is the appropriateness of some girls in slutty clothing at an event. Which is apparently par for the course in that part of the world, so, whatever. I would argue that hiring strippers in any capacity here in America would be a poor idea, because _everyone_ would feel uncomfortable.
      - antonovka 17y ago
        Ridiculous cultural relativism can be applied to almost any transgression. If you don't like naked males, don't watch Torchwood. If you want to be part of the technology community, but feel uncomfortable with strippers and lap-dances, too bad?
        steveklabnik 17y ago
        I have this feeling that we're just going to have to agree to disagree. Good luck.
        antonovka 17y ago
        I have this feeling that we're just going to have to agree to disagree. That may be, but before you abandon the question, I suggest watching that Google Techtalk.
- Tichy 17y ago
  Do you seriously think the fewer number of women in IT is because of strippers and lap dancers? Even though this is the first IT event I heard of that includes lap dancers. But I guess all these years women were fearing this day that there might be strippers at an event with computer nerds, at the other end of the world nevertheless, so they chose to study history of arts instead.
  - antonovka 17y ago
    No, I think that the lack of women in IT is partially due to an endemic lack of social inclusion, amply demonstrated by hiring strippers to give lap dances at a technology conference.
    - Tichy 17y ago
      Most tech people never even have a chance to practice social inclusion with tech aspiring females. I think the problem starts before that (if it is a problem - just like the missing male nurses).
nl 17y ago
Take a look at the second and third picture again. I can understand (if not agree with) the argument that dancing girls are a culturally acceptable form of entertainment in Taiwan. However, judging from those pictures this was more akin to lapdancing than dancing on a stage. I cannot believe that anyone would try and say that isn't associated with sex. That isn't wrong in itself, but it does mean that it's a form of entertainment aimed at a specific gender preference. While I do not preclude that many female developers are attracted to females, statistics show that on average a (much) greater proportion of males prefer females as a sexual partner than females do. That means their entertainment was primarily aimed at men. I believe that Yahoo should not discriminate based on race, religion or gender, and this bias is a form of discrimination. QED (There are other genuine concerns about the objectification of women as sex objects at a technology event, but I believe that the above argument is sufficient to show that it is wrong)
chromatic 17y ago
> I've never heard anyone say "oh, yeah, that paper, too bad it's authored by a woman." I have, if you substitute "book" for "paper". Now that we've traded anecdotes, where does that leave the discussion? > ... the problem won't be solved if you run around trying to make special rules for the girls. What special rule do you have in mind? I would feel uncomfortable with partially-unclothed dancers of any gender at a Bar Camp or hack day regardless of cultural norms. I suspect I'm not the only person who would feel that way, and I'm very comfortable suggesting that conference organizers should avoid hiring said dancers.