5 ms·

First, women playing football have a common enemy: the evil men who tell them they can't, the patriarchy! A common enemy is great for team dynamics. I can't i

by stolio 12y ago

First, women playing football have a common enemy: the evil men who tell them they can't, the patriarchy! A common enemy is great for team dynamics. I can't imagine a spot on the team is sought after by girls the same way it is for guys. When I was in H.S. the football players were the top, they were kings. They had special privileges, they were treated better by teachers, it was always the other guys fault if they picked a fight, etc. They had fought for and earned social status and they were constantly fighting to keep it. The worst player on the team was still part of the team which earned them at minimum social status and physical protection. They also had enormous expectations of winning, of making the playoffs, they were "representing the school." There were other implications of football as well, like college scholarships. Being good could have a drastic effect on their quality of life in the long term. I don't want to diminish what the girls are doing, but I don't see any way they have the same incentives or pressures that the guys have.

somberi 12y ago
"I am a member of a team, and I rely on the team, I defer to it and sacrifice for it, because the team, not the individual, is the ultimate champion." - Mia Hamm (For who do know who she is, she is a ex-US soccer captain)
- stolio 12y ago
  Mia Hamm only proves my point: female athletes don't face the pressures or incentives that males face. When she was playing women's professional soccer in the U.S. the league even existing was considered a success. Her salary peaked at $93,000. Peak salary for the WNBA in 2013 was $107,000. As of 2014 being on an NFL practice squad for a season pays a minimum of $102,000. Being signed to the team pays a minimum over $400k, the max salary for 2014 is $22,000,000. In 2009 the average salary for Women's Professional Soccer players was $32,000. We can idealize female athletes all day, but they simply don't have the same incentives as men to be selfish so it's not a telling comparison. Think about this, the University of Michigan is willing to pay the football coach ten times what they pay their own president[0]. [0] - http://www.forbes.com/sites/marcedelman/2014/12/18/university-of-michigan-offers-football-coach-nearly-10-times-president-salary/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/marcedelman/2014/12/18/universit...
  - kendallpark 12y ago
    I don't think your incentives argument is actually valid. In order for a player to be, say, drafted by an NFL team, he has to be able to work with the team. Teams routinely blacklist players from the draft that have poor sportsmanship or teamwork skills. Furthermore, when I started coaching guys, we had a terrible football team. 1-7. There was no school pride, barely anyone attended the games. To the school, the team was a joke. The only players we had on the field were the guys that loved the sport would tough out a losing season. And we still had the same issues with teamwork/ego/individualism as with winning seasons.
    - stolio 12y ago
      Individual success for a member of an NFL team is the difference between $22,000,000 and $405,000. Per year. That's a massive incentive to act as an individual. It great that you enjoy what you do, but a better comparison would be kickball teams, because everybody's there for the same reasons.
      - kendallpark 12y ago
        You've created a false dichotomy between "individual success" and "being a team player." Part of being an exceptional individual football player is being a good team player, which will be reflected in salaries. Your argument has gotten incredibly tangential at this point and it's clear that you just want to pick a fight about the mens vs womens sports. (Backhanded comment comparing women's football to "kickball" not appreciated.) Have a good day sir.
        stolio 12y ago
        Then you've almost completely misunderstood me. My whole argument is that men's vs. women's football is a bad area for teamwork comparisons because of the wildly differing cultures, costs, risks and rewards involved. And what's a team sport that both men and women play in the same way where everybody has about the same amount to gain/lose? Kickball. It's not a backhanded comment nor an insult, it's not tangential because it's my central argument. But I suppose we'll agree have to agree to disagree.
kendallpark 12y ago
> First, women playing football have a common enemy: the evil men who tell them they can't, the patriarchy! A common enemy is great for team dynamics. ^^^ Really? This is a rather immature statement. Also I don't really see how your point relates to my argument that women have a natural penchant for teamwork. I guess playing because you're passionate about the sport isn't sufficient 'incentive?' Women's football has pressures and hardships that men's football doesn't have. For one, teams are not affiliated with any school so we have to buy our own equipment, rent the field, pay for traveling across the country. I spent about 1K every year playing football (and have spent a few more Ks paying for three sports injury surgeries). We all have full-time jobs, and many have families and children. Most of my free time from January to July is taken up by weightlifting, practicing, watching film, and traveling for games. So a typical practice day for me looks like 8-4:30 programming job, 5pm get home, 5:30 leave for practice, 9pm get home, eat dinner, go to bed, repeat. No fame. No social status++. If anything, you're making an argument that female football players have a more "pure" reason behind playing football. (Though I would never make that claim, so as to insult our male counterparts that are just as passionate about the game.)
- stolio 12y ago
  > If anything, you're making an argument that female football players have a more "pure" reason behind playing football. (Though I would never make that claim, so as to insult our male counterparts that are just as passionate about the game This is -exactly- what I'm saying. Exactly. But I would add that for males struggling for social status is a very old and pure pursuit in and of itself.

by stolio 12y ago

somberi 12y ago

"I am a member of a team, and I rely on the team, I defer to it and sacrifice for it, because the team, not the individual, is the ultimate champion." - Mia Hamm (For who do know who she is, she is a ex-US soccer captain)

stolio 12y ago
Mia Hamm only proves my point: female athletes don't face the pressures or incentives that males face. When she was playing women's professional soccer in the U.S. the league even existing was considered a success. Her salary peaked at $93,000. Peak salary for the WNBA in 2013 was $107,000. As of 2014 being on an NFL practice squad for a season pays a minimum of $102,000. Being signed to the team pays a minimum over $400k, the max salary for 2014 is $22,000,000. In 2009 the average salary for Women's Professional Soccer players was $32,000. We can idealize female athletes all day, but they simply don't have the same incentives as men to be selfish so it's not a telling comparison. Think about this, the University of Michigan is willing to pay the football coach ten times what they pay their own president[0]. [0] - http://www.forbes.com/sites/marcedelman/2014/12/18/university-of-michigan-offers-football-coach-nearly-10-times-president-salary/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/marcedelman/2014/12/18/universit...
- kendallpark 12y ago
  I don't think your incentives argument is actually valid. In order for a player to be, say, drafted by an NFL team, he has to be able to work with the team. Teams routinely blacklist players from the draft that have poor sportsmanship or teamwork skills. Furthermore, when I started coaching guys, we had a terrible football team. 1-7. There was no school pride, barely anyone attended the games. To the school, the team was a joke. The only players we had on the field were the guys that loved the sport would tough out a losing season. And we still had the same issues with teamwork/ego/individualism as with winning seasons.
  - stolio 12y ago
    Individual success for a member of an NFL team is the difference between $22,000,000 and $405,000. Per year. That's a massive incentive to act as an individual. It great that you enjoy what you do, but a better comparison would be kickball teams, because everybody's there for the same reasons.
    - kendallpark 12y ago
      You've created a false dichotomy between "individual success" and "being a team player." Part of being an exceptional individual football player is being a good team player, which will be reflected in salaries. Your argument has gotten incredibly tangential at this point and it's clear that you just want to pick a fight about the mens vs womens sports. (Backhanded comment comparing women's football to "kickball" not appreciated.) Have a good day sir.
      - stolio 12y ago
        Then you've almost completely misunderstood me. My whole argument is that men's vs. women's football is a bad area for teamwork comparisons because of the wildly differing cultures, costs, risks and rewards involved. And what's a team sport that both men and women play in the same way where everybody has about the same amount to gain/lose? Kickball. It's not a backhanded comment nor an insult, it's not tangential because it's my central argument. But I suppose we'll agree have to agree to disagree.

kendallpark 12y ago

> First, women playing football have a common enemy: the evil men who tell them they can't, the patriarchy! A common enemy is great for team dynamics. ^^^ Really? This is a rather immature statement. Also I don't really see how your point relates to my argument that women have a natural penchant for teamwork. I guess playing because you're passionate about the sport isn't sufficient 'incentive?' Women's football has pressures and hardships that men's football doesn't have. For one, teams are not affiliated with any school so we have to buy our own equipment, rent the field, pay for traveling across the country. I spent about 1K every year playing football (and have spent a few more Ks paying for three sports injury surgeries). We all have full-time jobs, and many have families and children. Most of my free time from January to July is taken up by weightlifting, practicing, watching film, and traveling for games. So a typical practice day for me looks like 8-4:30 programming job, 5pm get home, 5:30 leave for practice, 9pm get home, eat dinner, go to bed, repeat. No fame. No social status++. If anything, you're making an argument that female football players have a more "pure" reason behind playing football. (Though I would never make that claim, so as to insult our male counterparts that are just as passionate about the game.)

stolio 12y ago
> If anything, you're making an argument that female football players have a more "pure" reason behind playing football. (Though I would never make that claim, so as to insult our male counterparts that are just as passionate about the game This is -exactly- what I'm saying. Exactly. But I would add that for males struggling for social status is a very old and pure pursuit in and of itself.