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That is a very scary argument. To deny education because it could be used in ways you may not like is a very unfortunate position to take. Education is likely t

by toufka 12y ago

That is a very scary argument. To deny education because it could be used in ways you may not like is a very unfortunate position to take. Education is likely the only way a system like North Korea's will ever fall short of a militarized take over - another horrible fate to wish on those same people. And were it to fall, an education is all that would permit their survival in the world at large. To deny individuals a modern education is a particularly cruel punishment - maybe more so to punish those who would wish to educate.

chroma 12y ago
I agree that it's a scary argument. That's why I was careful in how I put it forth. The problem is that many skills are dual-use. At some point, a threshold is reached where a student is more likely to use the knowledge to harm than to help. This threshold depends on the skill and the student. To use a hypothetical: Would you condone someone teaching particle physics in North Korea? How about biology? Chemistry? Turbine engineering? Teaching any of these would probably increase North Korea's ability to threaten and harm its people and the rest of the world. It's sad that this is the case, but it's hard to argue otherwise. Unfortunately, I seriously doubt education will help free North Korea. If you read the stories of defectors, you'll find that almost everyone in universities is indoctrinated. Also, because of how people are encouraged to report each other, no underground network of dissenters can exist. Even if 90% of North Koreans wanted to overthrow the government, anyone who voiced dissidence to a few friends would likely be reported and thrown in a prison camp (if not outright executed), along with their family. It doesn't take much to control many. I really wish it was as easy as, "Education is good." But there can be dire consequences to actions, even ones as typically benign as teaching others. It's important to have a finely-tuned sense of ethics, otherwise we risk harming people who we mean to help.
- kimjonsegfault 12y ago
  What's scary is the level of your indoctrination. North Korea has been surviving decades in almost complete world isolation, because it opposes capitalism. It's not mordor, it's a society with a structure that is not compatible with western capitalism. Everything you think you know about has been filtered to hide any positive aspects of such a society and to exacerbate the negatives. This was done to Vietname, to China, USSR. This was done to Obama during the healthcare "debate". North Korea has withstood decades of economic isolation, and yet it lives and its people live much better than citizens of Somalia and other great capitalist nations, not that anyone would let you know. You're not freeing North Korea by isolating it and starving it, you are killing it, and the people. You say it doesn't tame much to control many, but this applies to the West as much as it does anywhere. You have a set of values, and you are in harmony with enough people, you can work for them, with them. The same applies in North Korea, and USSR (where I'm from). The country is a single company, the CEO might be eccentric, but people do have jobs, work hard, have education, healthcare and believe in communism. What they don't have is Hollywood, McDonnalds and Fox News. And this is why you want to "free them". They have nuclear weapons not because they are evil, but because they know what US does to countries people like you believe need to be freed.
  - chongli 12y ago
    Yes, and European fascism was okay because the trains were always on time.
    - kimjonsegfault 12y ago
      North Korea is not a fascist or nationalistic regime. And it's only been turned into a concentration camp by the West through sanctions. It's not even any more antithesis to democracy either. The party members are elected. The institution members are promoted by performance like anywhere else. The 'supreme leader' being some sort of a Sauron is a fantasy. Since you're comparing to Nazi Germany, you should also know that Hitler wasn't some sort of a god who bent everyone to his will. He was a leader of a party and a movement with the fascist ideology. Please don't equate Nazism and Communism.
      - iliis 12y ago
        You know that North Korea has actual concentration camps, right? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoeryong_concentration_camp http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoeryong_concentration_camp
        kimjonsegfault 12y ago
        Unfortunately, every country has prison colonies. USA has more than anyone, including abroad. You choose to believe 'Database Center for North Korean Human Rights' from which this article is sourced, that it seeks to publicize the truth and isn't funded by CIA. I believe otherwise, after comparing activities of human rights organizations in countries all over the world. It makes me quite sad that the human rights cause and genuinely well meaning people are used to further US imperialism.
        unprepare 12y ago
        >after comparing activities of human rights organizations in countries all over the world. Is this comparison available for us to view?
- moe 12y ago
  It's important to have a finely-tuned sense of ethics So when totalitarian regimes apply denial of education, mass surveillance, indefinite detention without trial, then that is evil. But when the USA does it then it is due to a "finely-tuned sense of ethics"?
- yAnonymous 12y ago
  "Your moral compass is so fucked up, I'll be shocked if you manage to find your way back to the parking lot."
- 1stop 12y ago
  You aren't exhibiting a finally tuned sense of ethics. Exactly which ethical principle(s) are you following? This seems like a 5 minutes of thought kind of solution to an incredibly complex problem. North Korea can buy/steal/grow the knowledge they need. They already have nukes, and are working on missiles. I think the notion that we should sanction education (on top of the existing sanctions) is just playing by the already broken playbook we (the rest of the world) have been to date. We are feeding their propaganda machine on how evil we are. Just a question, how is the DPRK any MORE evil than other states the US happily does business with? (Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Israel, China, etc) What in particular makes them evil? I agree that it is a messed up situation and some horrible shit is going on. But I also have a feeling we are being manipulated by the media.
  - jklinger410 12y ago
    >I think the notion that we should sanction education (on top of the existing sanctions) is just playing by the already broken playbook we (the rest of the world) have been to date. We are feeding their propaganda machine on how evil we are. We are not obligated in any way to provide education to North Korea. Saying we are "evil" for not educating another country is quite a stretch.
    - anonbanker 12y ago
      Which is why we're discussing denying them education, rather than merely not educating them. Denying or obstructing their education is pretty darn evil.
- coldtea 12y ago
  >To use a hypothetical: Would you condone someone teaching particle physics in North Korea? How about biology? Chemistry? Turbine engineering? Teaching any of these would probably increase North Korea's ability to threaten and harm its people and the rest of the world. It's sad that this is the case, but it's hard to argue otherwise. How's NK different from the US to that regard? You know, the one country among those two that actually blasted two civilian cities with atomic bombs, sprayed Agent Orange over Vietnam, and has chronically had leaders who "speak with god"...
Shivetya 12y ago
Perhaps we should consider that there are some countries where it is not proper for us to be offering such education? I can name very few countries deserving of nothing more than basic food and medical and North Korea is one of them. Don't throw the guilt on him or others,their fate is already abysmal because of their government and sending them a few teachers is not going to benefit their society and if its for feels, well they are misdirected and other countries are far more deserving of our time

by toufka 12y ago

chroma 12y ago

I agree that it's a scary argument. That's why I was careful in how I put it forth. The problem is that many skills are dual-use. At some point, a threshold is reached where a student is more likely to use the knowledge to harm than to help. This threshold depends on the skill and the student. To use a hypothetical: Would you condone someone teaching particle physics in North Korea? How about biology? Chemistry? Turbine engineering? Teaching any of these would probably increase North Korea's ability to threaten and harm its people and the rest of the world. It's sad that this is the case, but it's hard to argue otherwise. Unfortunately, I seriously doubt education will help free North Korea. If you read the stories of defectors, you'll find that almost everyone in universities is indoctrinated. Also, because of how people are encouraged to report each other, no underground network of dissenters can exist. Even if 90% of North Koreans wanted to overthrow the government, anyone who voiced dissidence to a few friends would likely be reported and thrown in a prison camp (if not outright executed), along with their family. It doesn't take much to control many. I really wish it was as easy as, "Education is good." But there can be dire consequences to actions, even ones as typically benign as teaching others. It's important to have a finely-tuned sense of ethics, otherwise we risk harming people who we mean to help.

kimjonsegfault 12y ago
What's scary is the level of your indoctrination. North Korea has been surviving decades in almost complete world isolation, because it opposes capitalism. It's not mordor, it's a society with a structure that is not compatible with western capitalism. Everything you think you know about has been filtered to hide any positive aspects of such a society and to exacerbate the negatives. This was done to Vietname, to China, USSR. This was done to Obama during the healthcare "debate". North Korea has withstood decades of economic isolation, and yet it lives and its people live much better than citizens of Somalia and other great capitalist nations, not that anyone would let you know. You're not freeing North Korea by isolating it and starving it, you are killing it, and the people. You say it doesn't tame much to control many, but this applies to the West as much as it does anywhere. You have a set of values, and you are in harmony with enough people, you can work for them, with them. The same applies in North Korea, and USSR (where I'm from). The country is a single company, the CEO might be eccentric, but people do have jobs, work hard, have education, healthcare and believe in communism. What they don't have is Hollywood, McDonnalds and Fox News. And this is why you want to "free them". They have nuclear weapons not because they are evil, but because they know what US does to countries people like you believe need to be freed.
- chongli 12y ago
  Yes, and European fascism was okay because the trains were always on time.
  - kimjonsegfault 12y ago
    North Korea is not a fascist or nationalistic regime. And it's only been turned into a concentration camp by the West through sanctions. It's not even any more antithesis to democracy either. The party members are elected. The institution members are promoted by performance like anywhere else. The 'supreme leader' being some sort of a Sauron is a fantasy. Since you're comparing to Nazi Germany, you should also know that Hitler wasn't some sort of a god who bent everyone to his will. He was a leader of a party and a movement with the fascist ideology. Please don't equate Nazism and Communism.
    - iliis 12y ago
      You know that North Korea has actual concentration camps, right? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoeryong_concentration_camp http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoeryong_concentration_camp
      - kimjonsegfault 12y ago
        Unfortunately, every country has prison colonies. USA has more than anyone, including abroad. You choose to believe 'Database Center for North Korean Human Rights' from which this article is sourced, that it seeks to publicize the truth and isn't funded by CIA. I believe otherwise, after comparing activities of human rights organizations in countries all over the world. It makes me quite sad that the human rights cause and genuinely well meaning people are used to further US imperialism.
        unprepare 12y ago
        >after comparing activities of human rights organizations in countries all over the world. Is this comparison available for us to view?
moe 12y ago
It's important to have a finely-tuned sense of ethics So when totalitarian regimes apply denial of education, mass surveillance, indefinite detention without trial, then that is evil. But when the USA does it then it is due to a "finely-tuned sense of ethics"?
yAnonymous 12y ago
"Your moral compass is so fucked up, I'll be shocked if you manage to find your way back to the parking lot."
1stop 12y ago
You aren't exhibiting a finally tuned sense of ethics. Exactly which ethical principle(s) are you following? This seems like a 5 minutes of thought kind of solution to an incredibly complex problem. North Korea can buy/steal/grow the knowledge they need. They already have nukes, and are working on missiles. I think the notion that we should sanction education (on top of the existing sanctions) is just playing by the already broken playbook we (the rest of the world) have been to date. We are feeding their propaganda machine on how evil we are. Just a question, how is the DPRK any MORE evil than other states the US happily does business with? (Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Israel, China, etc) What in particular makes them evil? I agree that it is a messed up situation and some horrible shit is going on. But I also have a feeling we are being manipulated by the media.
- jklinger410 12y ago
  >I think the notion that we should sanction education (on top of the existing sanctions) is just playing by the already broken playbook we (the rest of the world) have been to date. We are feeding their propaganda machine on how evil we are. We are not obligated in any way to provide education to North Korea. Saying we are "evil" for not educating another country is quite a stretch.
  - anonbanker 12y ago
    Which is why we're discussing denying them education, rather than merely not educating them. Denying or obstructing their education is pretty darn evil.
coldtea 12y ago
>To use a hypothetical: Would you condone someone teaching particle physics in North Korea? How about biology? Chemistry? Turbine engineering? Teaching any of these would probably increase North Korea's ability to threaten and harm its people and the rest of the world. It's sad that this is the case, but it's hard to argue otherwise. How's NK different from the US to that regard? You know, the one country among those two that actually blasted two civilian cities with atomic bombs, sprayed Agent Orange over Vietnam, and has chronically had leaders who "speak with god"...

Shivetya 12y ago

Perhaps we should consider that there are some countries where it is not proper for us to be offering such education? I can name very few countries deserving of nothing more than basic food and medical and North Korea is one of them. Don't throw the guilt on him or others,their fate is already abysmal because of their government and sending them a few teachers is not going to benefit their society and if its for feels, well they are misdirected and other countries are far more deserving of our time