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It is sad how we allow rude people to get away with selfish behavior and make life for difficult for everyone else. Doing so encourages rude people to be even

It is sad how we allow rude people to get away with selfish behavior and make life for difficult for everyone else. Doing so encourages rude people to be even more selfish and we get the kind of behavior you see discussed in the article. Addressing the issues directly is often challenging. That is my guess on why we allow degenerate behavior to impose costs on others until it reaches epidemic proportions when we finally attempt to address it. It also encourages people to isolate themselves in enclaves where people that share certain expectations of behavior can shut out others and deal with those that are at least somewhat considerate of whatever behaviors the group cares about. Allowing the rudest people to abuse society degrades the public square and tears at the benefits that can strengthen the social contract. Sadly it seems to be a pretty dominate trait in our society these last few decades and it seems likely to just keep getting worse. Hopefully I am wrong.

wozniacki 12y ago
It also encourages people to isolate themselves in enclaves where people that share certain expectations of behavior can shut out others and deal with those that are at least somewhat considerate of whatever behaviors the group cares about. This. Yes. Hat tip. It isn't even the slight bit humorous anymore how much of these kind of exclusionary tactics play out in those "communities" that cry gentrification at the slightest degree of outsider intrusion, into their "districts" where certain unspoken rules of law evasion, creative law-flouting and outright prejudicially illegal behavior are propped up by the ingroup [1] members. This is precisely why I am not very empathetic to cries of gentrification, in places like SF. With these communities, it is most often not a debate of economic displacement but one of selective self-imposed seclusion. Simply put, they don't want you there not because you are economically displacing them and thereby a threat. They don't want you in their cafes, their bars, their parks and stores just because you are not like them. I resist elaborating for it should resemble a rant. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingroups_and_outgroups http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingroups_and_outgroups
- baddox 12y ago
  I'm not so sure that self-imposed cultural isolation is such a bad thing, at least inherently. It seems like a potentially better way for global society to support an extremely wide range of cultural norms than for every set of norms to be distributed evenly and tons of effort spent futilely teaching people to be "tolerant."
  - kbenson 12y ago
    I'm not sure I accept that tolerance is too hard to teach, therefore we should allow people to avoid other cultures. I think many small issues is preferable to a few large ones, in this case.
    - baddox 12y ago
      I really don't think it's unreasonable or bad for someone to avoid other cultures. I think it's bad to be ignorant of other cultures, and certainly to be intolerant or bigoted, but I think it's perfectly reasonable to want to live and be around people who largely share your culture.
      - kbenson 12y ago
        I don't disagree with that, but cultural isolation is a strong term with strong connotations for me. I think history shows us that if it's easy for people to remain ignorant of others through cultural isolation, some subset will do so. I'm not against people carving out a cultural niche, but I think that the point we can use the word isolation to describe it, we have a problem. The problem isn't one direction, either. Cultural isolation can keep outsiders from understanding and tolerance as well, which leads to discrimination, which may lead to more isolation and reciprocated feelings towards the outside.
  - UrMomReadsHN 12y ago
    A problem with social isolation of groups leads to tension between groups. It is very easy to demonize a group when you have no contact with anyone from that group. Case in point: Gays in the US. Acceptance of gays an gay marriage has increased DRAMATICALLY over the last decade in the US. Why? It is thought because people are starting to know gay people. Gay people are coming out and becoming visible. When you find out your neighbor or coworker or friend or even child is gay, your views of gays change. Suddenly they aren't the demonized other. In 1993 22% of Americans report having a close friend or family member who is gay. Now? 65%. I also think social isolation leads to radicalization. When you start feeling its US vs THEM. It also leads to a loss of personal freedoms. One isn't free to integrate into a culture that is hostile to them and they lose that freedom of choice of lifestyle. Like it or not, the US is a multi ethnic multi racial multi cultural place. I think even the majorty of countries have minority populations. I don't think isolation of cultures is a good thing for a society.
SilasX 12y ago
Agree completely. We saw a similar dynamic with the recent stepped up enforcement of the rules against blocking BART stairways and exits in the Bay Area [1]. When they finally took action against it, they had to use the pretense of safety. No one was willing to say, "Look, we really don't want to look like a police state here, but there are about a trillion other places just a few steps away where you can sleep or beg, and where we will leave you the heck alone, so if you're unwilling to play well with passersby, we will have to physically move you." [1] http://m.sfgate.com/bayarea/matier-ross/article/BART-to-roust-sleepers-in-stations-as-a-safety-5639580.php http://m.sfgate.com/bayarea/matier-ross/article/BART-to-rous...
_almosnow 12y ago
Right on spot. My personal opinion: I don't have nothing against dogs but I hate to hear them barking. I know that you can't completely control that but way many owners do not teach manners to their dogs and they are barking all the time. Now before someone says "what's up with this guy expecting manners from dogs" I actually adopted two dogs last year and without prior experience I educated them really well. Now I'm pretty sure that a messy dog is absolutely the fault of the owner's behavior. And you're right about the social contract. The damage that irresponsible owners are doing to society far extends the trivial situation of "that dog is making a lot of noise"; that thing easily becomes a "I hope the owner gets it back" and those collective feelings fuel a more hostile society in general.
- dengnan 12y ago
  You are right to some extent. But may I ask what is your dogs' breed? Different breeds have different behavior patterns and some specific to barking, some breeds are just more noisy than others no matter how you trained them. For example, terriers were used to rats, rabbits, and foxes [0]. This means they had to work along underground so that barking was actually a good trait otherwise their owners might not be able to find them when they had some dangerous situation underneath. Barking was an old GPS for their owners. Terriers were specifically selected by breeders to bark loud and frequent[1]. Of course that does not necessary mean a barking terrier is acceptable. They have to be trained but may bark more than other breeds. 0. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrier http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrier 1. Dawn Antoniak-Mitchell, Terrier-Centric Dog Training: From Tenacious to Tremendous. http://www.amazon.com/Terrier-Centric-Dog-Training-Tenacious-Tremendous-ebook/dp/B00A3EIYYC/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1421647450&sr=1-1&keywords=terrier+training&pebp=1421647453149&peasin=B00A3EIYYC http://www.amazon.com/Terrier-Centric-Dog-Training-Tenacious...
  - _almosnow 12y ago
    I don't know what breed they are because I found them on the street but they look a lot like German shepherds. But yeah ok, "maybe it's the breed". Still, I think that a courteous owner goes a long way. I don't know if shepherds are specifically prone to barking but I can tell you that my dogs were particularly prone to barking when I found them. They pretty much barked at anything, other people, other dogs, just because they were bored, etc... Ever since I got them I continuously chided them when they barked at inappropriate situations; around 2-3 months following this relatively simple treatment (sometimes as trivial as just yelling NO!) and their noise and anxious behavior has been reduced considerably. I'm not saying they don't bark anymore, because they do, but when I'm in a situation where they start barking at someone at the street (for instance) my reaction is to immediately try to do something to make them stop and sometimes I even excuse myself with the people involved; I've seen many owners dealing with the same situation in a completely different way, even taking a defiant attitude, like in "you can't do anything, its not illegal for my dog to bark", this attitude is what pisses other people off. It's not the dog barking, it's the owner not giving a shit; it's like seeing someone throwing trash on the street, the world's not going to end because of a can lying there in the sidewalk but a world where many people act in such manner is a world that's up to no good.
greggman 12y ago
What each person considers selfish is, unfortunately?, subjective. Is crossing the street against the light selfish? Yes, you're taking someone else's turn. No, you're just crossing the street. Is peeing on a toilet seat selfish? Yes, you're ruining for everyone else. No, you don't want to touch that gross seat so you're not lifting it. The media / culture in the west or at least USA relishes "break the rules" but that is often interpreted by some in ways that some would argue are selfish. Graffiti (is it street art or ruining someone else's property). Trespassing (is it just being harmlessly curious or invading someone's space or privacy). Returning things you used, as in buying a dress, wearing it to a party and returning it for a full refund. (Is it just being frugal or selfish?)
- _almosnow 12y ago
  Yeah you can get lost in the details for as much time as you want and you can also justify pretty much every kind of behavior imaginable by artificially constructing a scenario that favors whatever point of view you are trying to defend. Everything is subjective, I agree, but I think everyone could be mature enough to discern the line between "I can't avoid doing this" and "I'm just being an ass". If most people were honest enough to just think "this is wrong, I'll refrain from doing it" we wouldn't even need laws in the first place. The problem is not how subjective are the issues at hand, the problem is the attitude some people take when confronted with those issues. You can make extremely detailed laws that are designed to take into account every possible situation that may arise and still have someone study them well enough to discover a flaw and use that as a shield for, well, being an asshole. "Yeah the law says that I can't pee on toilets but I didn't pee on it, I just threw the pee there later from a bag. Gotcha!"
  - baddox 12y ago
    There are much better examples of subjective cultural norms than greggman provided. The notion of personal space, for example, varies significantly between cultures, and there is no significant objective reasons one norm is better than other.
    - 12y ago
SixSigma 12y ago
See also: obesity EDIT : if the downvoter can explain to me why, I would appreciate it. Selfish, impulse driven, has massive impact on others while denying same, is a choice.
- lmm 12y ago
  You may find it upsetting to see an obese person, but I don't think it really compares to having someone's dog crap on your aeroplane.
  - Shivetya 12y ago
    Like referring to morbid obesity which is getting too prevalent in societies across the world. Far too many of the morbid obese do not see themselves as such or refuse too. It should be treated the same as smoking and dogs crapping on planes; that morbidly obese person is more of a risk for your plane than a crapping dog. Being a dog owner, having been raised with dogs and other animals, I really don't want to see them in restaurants, grocery stores, or my doctors office. Pet stores, fine. On a plane in a carry on under the seat fine, roaming the isles no. The airplane problem is far too many people lie and declare them service dogs, something that to a point is lawful and airlines are loathe to challenge passengers over fear of suits. There should definitely not be service animals other than dogs. Emotional support animals should not be accorded the same treatment as those serving the blind.
    - lmm 12y ago
      A "risk" how? The airlines update their weight statistics, they know how much they're carrying. Are you worried about the chance of them having a heart attack disrupting your flight? In that case you should be more worried about elderly people.
  - SixSigma 12y ago
    I find it upsetting that it is crippling the healthcare systems across the developed world.
silencio 12y ago
It's difficult to challenge also because it makes it even more difficult for the people who need help, and there will always be some number of rude people that squeak by too. In the case of ESAs, every fix for this problem will be more work for people with service animals. The most popular fix I've heard of is a nationwide registry, but what kind of signup cost will there be? A service dog is already expensive, what if the additional signup is prohibitively expensive for those that really need it? Another one I can think of is the disability pass I got the last time I went to a Disney theme park. The pass basically lets you wait like everyone else, just not in line (e.g. 100 minute wait for space mountain - sign up and just come back after 100 minutes to use the Fastpass line). It used to be a direct skip-to-the-Fastpass line, but it _seemed_ like it was abused too much so Disney changed the benefit, but not the way to get it. So the same rude people can still abuse it, but everyone else that needed it got screwed. Bonus points because people like me with no visible disability (wooohoo nerve damage in my legs) look like abusers to the average person. Then there are the people that get pissed off that I would like to board a plane early because it's totally about me wanting overhead space for....the bag I checked... and it can't possibly be because I would like to minimize pain that drugs can't touch by not waiting in lines. I don't think this is a particularly new problem. Some people just want all the nice things and have no respect for others.
- fineIllregister 12y ago
  It's been a while since I've been to Disney, but I don't see how that's any different than a fastpass. Would giving a fastpass be sufficient accommodation?
- dfxm12 12y ago
  If you're so worried about what other people think of you while boarding a plane first, why don't you simply board it last?
Shivetya 12y ago
Well when you have a government people telling them they are entitled to this, that, and oh yeah maybe that, its bound to filter into the common mindset. Follow it up with TV programs, internet sites, and the like, which on serve to reinforce the attitude. You deserve high speed internet, you deserve a phone, you deserve pets, you deserve to take your emotional support llama with you... on and on and on... never do we hear, your rights do not supersede the rights and safety of others.

wozniacki 12y ago

It also encourages people to isolate themselves in enclaves where people that share certain expectations of behavior can shut out others and deal with those that are at least somewhat considerate of whatever behaviors the group cares about. This. Yes. Hat tip. It isn't even the slight bit humorous anymore how much of these kind of exclusionary tactics play out in those "communities" that cry gentrification at the slightest degree of outsider intrusion, into their "districts" where certain unspoken rules of law evasion, creative law-flouting and outright prejudicially illegal behavior are propped up by the ingroup [1] members. This is precisely why I am not very empathetic to cries of gentrification, in places like SF. With these communities, it is most often not a debate of economic displacement but one of selective self-imposed seclusion. Simply put, they don't want you there not because you are economically displacing them and thereby a threat. They don't want you in their cafes, their bars, their parks and stores just because you are not like them. I resist elaborating for it should resemble a rant. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingroups_and_outgroups http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingroups_and_outgroups

baddox 12y ago
I'm not so sure that self-imposed cultural isolation is such a bad thing, at least inherently. It seems like a potentially better way for global society to support an extremely wide range of cultural norms than for every set of norms to be distributed evenly and tons of effort spent futilely teaching people to be "tolerant."
- kbenson 12y ago
  I'm not sure I accept that tolerance is too hard to teach, therefore we should allow people to avoid other cultures. I think many small issues is preferable to a few large ones, in this case.
  - baddox 12y ago
    I really don't think it's unreasonable or bad for someone to avoid other cultures. I think it's bad to be ignorant of other cultures, and certainly to be intolerant or bigoted, but I think it's perfectly reasonable to want to live and be around people who largely share your culture.
    - kbenson 12y ago
      I don't disagree with that, but cultural isolation is a strong term with strong connotations for me. I think history shows us that if it's easy for people to remain ignorant of others through cultural isolation, some subset will do so. I'm not against people carving out a cultural niche, but I think that the point we can use the word isolation to describe it, we have a problem. The problem isn't one direction, either. Cultural isolation can keep outsiders from understanding and tolerance as well, which leads to discrimination, which may lead to more isolation and reciprocated feelings towards the outside.
- UrMomReadsHN 12y ago
  A problem with social isolation of groups leads to tension between groups. It is very easy to demonize a group when you have no contact with anyone from that group. Case in point: Gays in the US. Acceptance of gays an gay marriage has increased DRAMATICALLY over the last decade in the US. Why? It is thought because people are starting to know gay people. Gay people are coming out and becoming visible. When you find out your neighbor or coworker or friend or even child is gay, your views of gays change. Suddenly they aren't the demonized other. In 1993 22% of Americans report having a close friend or family member who is gay. Now? 65%. I also think social isolation leads to radicalization. When you start feeling its US vs THEM. It also leads to a loss of personal freedoms. One isn't free to integrate into a culture that is hostile to them and they lose that freedom of choice of lifestyle. Like it or not, the US is a multi ethnic multi racial multi cultural place. I think even the majorty of countries have minority populations. I don't think isolation of cultures is a good thing for a society.

SilasX 12y ago

Agree completely. We saw a similar dynamic with the recent stepped up enforcement of the rules against blocking BART stairways and exits in the Bay Area [1]. When they finally took action against it, they had to use the pretense of safety. No one was willing to say, "Look, we really don't want to look like a police state here, but there are about a trillion other places just a few steps away where you can sleep or beg, and where we will leave you the heck alone, so if you're unwilling to play well with passersby, we will have to physically move you." [1] http://m.sfgate.com/bayarea/matier-ross/article/BART-to-roust-sleepers-in-stations-as-a-safety-5639580.php http://m.sfgate.com/bayarea/matier-ross/article/BART-to-rous...

_almosnow 12y ago

Right on spot. My personal opinion: I don't have nothing against dogs but I hate to hear them barking. I know that you can't completely control that but way many owners do not teach manners to their dogs and they are barking all the time. Now before someone says "what's up with this guy expecting manners from dogs" I actually adopted two dogs last year and without prior experience I educated them really well. Now I'm pretty sure that a messy dog is absolutely the fault of the owner's behavior. And you're right about the social contract. The damage that irresponsible owners are doing to society far extends the trivial situation of "that dog is making a lot of noise"; that thing easily becomes a "I hope the owner gets it back" and those collective feelings fuel a more hostile society in general.

dengnan 12y ago
You are right to some extent. But may I ask what is your dogs' breed? Different breeds have different behavior patterns and some specific to barking, some breeds are just more noisy than others no matter how you trained them. For example, terriers were used to rats, rabbits, and foxes [0]. This means they had to work along underground so that barking was actually a good trait otherwise their owners might not be able to find them when they had some dangerous situation underneath. Barking was an old GPS for their owners. Terriers were specifically selected by breeders to bark loud and frequent[1]. Of course that does not necessary mean a barking terrier is acceptable. They have to be trained but may bark more than other breeds. 0. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrier http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrier 1. Dawn Antoniak-Mitchell, Terrier-Centric Dog Training: From Tenacious to Tremendous. http://www.amazon.com/Terrier-Centric-Dog-Training-Tenacious-Tremendous-ebook/dp/B00A3EIYYC/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1421647450&sr=1-1&keywords=terrier+training&pebp=1421647453149&peasin=B00A3EIYYC http://www.amazon.com/Terrier-Centric-Dog-Training-Tenacious...
- _almosnow 12y ago
  I don't know what breed they are because I found them on the street but they look a lot like German shepherds. But yeah ok, "maybe it's the breed". Still, I think that a courteous owner goes a long way. I don't know if shepherds are specifically prone to barking but I can tell you that my dogs were particularly prone to barking when I found them. They pretty much barked at anything, other people, other dogs, just because they were bored, etc... Ever since I got them I continuously chided them when they barked at inappropriate situations; around 2-3 months following this relatively simple treatment (sometimes as trivial as just yelling NO!) and their noise and anxious behavior has been reduced considerably. I'm not saying they don't bark anymore, because they do, but when I'm in a situation where they start barking at someone at the street (for instance) my reaction is to immediately try to do something to make them stop and sometimes I even excuse myself with the people involved; I've seen many owners dealing with the same situation in a completely different way, even taking a defiant attitude, like in "you can't do anything, its not illegal for my dog to bark", this attitude is what pisses other people off. It's not the dog barking, it's the owner not giving a shit; it's like seeing someone throwing trash on the street, the world's not going to end because of a can lying there in the sidewalk but a world where many people act in such manner is a world that's up to no good.

greggman 12y ago

What each person considers selfish is, unfortunately?, subjective. Is crossing the street against the light selfish? Yes, you're taking someone else's turn. No, you're just crossing the street. Is peeing on a toilet seat selfish? Yes, you're ruining for everyone else. No, you don't want to touch that gross seat so you're not lifting it. The media / culture in the west or at least USA relishes "break the rules" but that is often interpreted by some in ways that some would argue are selfish. Graffiti (is it street art or ruining someone else's property). Trespassing (is it just being harmlessly curious or invading someone's space or privacy). Returning things you used, as in buying a dress, wearing it to a party and returning it for a full refund. (Is it just being frugal or selfish?)

_almosnow 12y ago
Yeah you can get lost in the details for as much time as you want and you can also justify pretty much every kind of behavior imaginable by artificially constructing a scenario that favors whatever point of view you are trying to defend. Everything is subjective, I agree, but I think everyone could be mature enough to discern the line between "I can't avoid doing this" and "I'm just being an ass". If most people were honest enough to just think "this is wrong, I'll refrain from doing it" we wouldn't even need laws in the first place. The problem is not how subjective are the issues at hand, the problem is the attitude some people take when confronted with those issues. You can make extremely detailed laws that are designed to take into account every possible situation that may arise and still have someone study them well enough to discover a flaw and use that as a shield for, well, being an asshole. "Yeah the law says that I can't pee on toilets but I didn't pee on it, I just threw the pee there later from a bag. Gotcha!"
- baddox 12y ago
  There are much better examples of subjective cultural norms than greggman provided. The notion of personal space, for example, varies significantly between cultures, and there is no significant objective reasons one norm is better than other.
  - 12y ago

SixSigma 12y ago

See also: obesity EDIT : if the downvoter can explain to me why, I would appreciate it. Selfish, impulse driven, has massive impact on others while denying same, is a choice.

lmm 12y ago
You may find it upsetting to see an obese person, but I don't think it really compares to having someone's dog crap on your aeroplane.
- Shivetya 12y ago
  Like referring to morbid obesity which is getting too prevalent in societies across the world. Far too many of the morbid obese do not see themselves as such or refuse too. It should be treated the same as smoking and dogs crapping on planes; that morbidly obese person is more of a risk for your plane than a crapping dog. Being a dog owner, having been raised with dogs and other animals, I really don't want to see them in restaurants, grocery stores, or my doctors office. Pet stores, fine. On a plane in a carry on under the seat fine, roaming the isles no. The airplane problem is far too many people lie and declare them service dogs, something that to a point is lawful and airlines are loathe to challenge passengers over fear of suits. There should definitely not be service animals other than dogs. Emotional support animals should not be accorded the same treatment as those serving the blind.
  - lmm 12y ago
    A "risk" how? The airlines update their weight statistics, they know how much they're carrying. Are you worried about the chance of them having a heart attack disrupting your flight? In that case you should be more worried about elderly people.
- SixSigma 12y ago
  I find it upsetting that it is crippling the healthcare systems across the developed world.

silencio 12y ago

It's difficult to challenge also because it makes it even more difficult for the people who need help, and there will always be some number of rude people that squeak by too. In the case of ESAs, every fix for this problem will be more work for people with service animals. The most popular fix I've heard of is a nationwide registry, but what kind of signup cost will there be? A service dog is already expensive, what if the additional signup is prohibitively expensive for those that really need it? Another one I can think of is the disability pass I got the last time I went to a Disney theme park. The pass basically lets you wait like everyone else, just not in line (e.g. 100 minute wait for space mountain - sign up and just come back after 100 minutes to use the Fastpass line). It used to be a direct skip-to-the-Fastpass line, but it _seemed_ like it was abused too much so Disney changed the benefit, but not the way to get it. So the same rude people can still abuse it, but everyone else that needed it got screwed. Bonus points because people like me with no visible disability (wooohoo nerve damage in my legs) look like abusers to the average person. Then there are the people that get pissed off that I would like to board a plane early because it's totally about me wanting overhead space for....the bag I checked... and it can't possibly be because I would like to minimize pain that drugs can't touch by not waiting in lines. I don't think this is a particularly new problem. Some people just want all the nice things and have no respect for others.

fineIllregister 12y ago
It's been a while since I've been to Disney, but I don't see how that's any different than a fastpass. Would giving a fastpass be sufficient accommodation?
dfxm12 12y ago
If you're so worried about what other people think of you while boarding a plane first, why don't you simply board it last?

Shivetya 12y ago

Well when you have a government people telling them they are entitled to this, that, and oh yeah maybe that, its bound to filter into the common mindset. Follow it up with TV programs, internet sites, and the like, which on serve to reinforce the attitude. You deserve high speed internet, you deserve a phone, you deserve pets, you deserve to take your emotional support llama with you... on and on and on... never do we hear, your rights do not supersede the rights and safety of others.