6 ms·

Review of the Model S 85

44 points by Artemis2 12y ago

wdewind 12y ago
> This means that you don’t have to touch the accelerator during stop and go traffic because it will do it for you. Soon Model S owners will be able to change lanes by only tapping on the turn signal stalks. No, they do not have to buy a new Model S to get this feature, they can simply connect their car to a wi-fi connection and get firmware updates. As someone who grew up in NYC and never learned to drive that is not only really cool but immensely appealing.
- eclipxe 12y ago
  Really cool feature - the adaptive cruise control feature is now becoming an option on more mainstream cars, and it is one of those "how did I ever drive in traffic without this feature" things. I think many people don't get how incredible that feature alone is - it isn't fully autonomous, but it makes driving in serious traffic so much less stressful. Add in Tesla's auto lane change and lane keep and you're 80% of the way to self driving.
- Animats 12y ago
  * they can simply connect their car to a wi-fi connection and get firmware updates.* Scary thought. What could possibly go wrong? Automotive software should not have frequent updates.
  - mschuster91 12y ago
    > Automotive software should not have frequent updates. Quite the contrary, I don't want to know how many integrated nav solutions or mediatainment systems are vulnerable to all sorts of exploits with no way to be updated except by an expensive visit to a service center.
    - Animats 12y ago
      Today, if it's vulnerable to an exploit, it's probably been exploited long before the vendor finds out about it. Patch-based security stopped working once the opposition became governments and organized crime, not script kiddies and email spammers.
- robmcm 12y ago
  I got adaptive cruise control in an Audi A3 last year and was amazed to find out it was first introduced in the mid 90s! That being said it feels very futuristic having a radar in your car and makes driving on the motorway a lot more pleasant. However I now seem to spend the brain cycles I was using on judging speed imagining up bugs that could cause me to accelerate into the car in front :/
  - qooleot 12y ago
    This. I'd played with all sorts of leap second adjustments, time zone switching, etc. A really rolling road (Arizona has some of these) where the car might be one "roller" ahead of you but look a lot closer, then your car hits the brakes at the apex with a car tailing you.
    - robmcm 12y ago
      There is a warning in the manual about sharp corners. There are times when on coming cars could look like they are in your lane. The biggest issue is that it ignores stationary cars, so if you come around a corner to red traffic lights it would drive straight into any stationary cars. Which is why I only really use it on the motorways (highways).
  - cjrp 12y ago
    Does it work if you're following a motorbike? I'm not sure how wide a vehicle it needs to get a decent radar return. Edit: Just looking at a Honda manual online[1], it says: "ACC may not recognize motorcycles or other small vehicles ahead of your vehicle". That's more than a little worrying. [1] https://techinfo.honda.com/rjanisis/pubs/om/JA0606/JA0606O00237A.pdf https://techinfo.honda.com/rjanisis/pubs/om/JA0606/JA0606O00...
    - robmcm 12y ago
      Mine tracks bikes well, I think it also uses a camera mounted above the rear view mirror. It also uses that camera to dip the headlights, which is often tricked by two lights close together (reflectors on bollards or traffic cones). It's also has to wait to see the headlights, where as I can tell they are coming a short time before.
- cones688 12y ago
  > This means that you don’t have to touch the accelerator during stop and go traffic because it will do it for you To be fair this kind of technology has been on top end Mercedes for a while (10yrs plus) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eU83G3OaJuU#t=115 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eU83G3OaJuU#t=115 I drove one a few summers ago as a chauffeur for Farmers Classic, it was all in/around LA so was incredible on jammed freeways, It's nothing new though or Tesla specific.
- paganel 12y ago
  > Soon Model S owners will be able to change lanes by only tapping on the turn signal stalks Not sure exactly how this will work: will the car change lane immediately (or just a few seconds after you turn on the signal) or will it first make sure that the driver behind you won't close the gap? Because if it doesn't do the second thing (i.e. making sure that the driver behind you will let you change the lane) then I'm not sure how it will work in cities with crazy traffic.
  - robmcm 12y ago
    Quite a lot of cars have lane assist now, where they will have a light on the wing mirror if there is something in your blind spot. They also vibrate the wheel if you go over lanes and aid in steering your back. I imagine this is a combination of the two. My worry is how it deals with something like this http://www.op-online.de/bilder/2012/12/18/2669673/1360212316-baustelle_autobahn_dpa-1609.jpg http://www.op-online.de/bilder/2012/12/18/2669673/1360212316... Does it just stop?
dice 12y ago
I don't know about "brutally quick". Anyone who's driven an M3, S4, or any similar performance sedan isn't going to be blown away by the speed of the Model S. It's fast, but it isn't mind-blowing.
- PhantomGremlin 12y ago
  Well, there's always the Tesla P85D, which they briefly mention in the article. That's the real performance version. It's quite a bit faster at 0-60 mph than the M3, roughly 3.2 seconds vs 3.9 seconds. And the Tesla is quiet. Here's a great video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QERGldfZA5A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QERGldfZA5A I don't know how well a Tesla corners compared to German or Italian competition.
  - hvidgaard 12y ago
    It will never hold up on the track. The battery can only handle the max load for a short amount of time, before the computer limits the engine and make the car more of a sunday driver. That's not a problem for every day driving, it just isn't comparable to other supercars on the track. It however means that for normal usage, it means you have the efficiency of an EV and the "burst" ability of a supercar.
  - cpswan 12y ago
    Cornering on the P85D is pretty amazing due to the low centre of mass. I got to drive it on public roads rather than the track, so I didn't get to push too hard, but even then I was surprised how quickly I could hustle it through bends (for comparison my usual drive is a BMW Z3M Coupe, and I've been lucky enough to drive most of the present M cars on the Spartanburg track).
  - feld 12y ago
    It feels pretty great in corners because the suspension keeps the car level. I don't have experience driving many other higher end cars to compare it to, though.
- benihana 12y ago
  Agreed, 0-60 in 5 seconds isn't slow, but it's not brutally fast by any stretch of the imagination. I'm less interested in the speed and more interested in the handling. I am a BMW guy through and through because they are just so much fun to drive and just feel right. How would you compare taking a Model S through the twisties to say an M3 or even a regular 3 series?
graycat 12y ago
Sure: As I remember from my college physics course in electricity and magnetism (E&M), a series wound electric motor has, with the simple mathematical model, infinite torque at stall, that is, not yet rotating. The torque falls off from infinity quickly as the motor starts to rotate. So, yes, the Tesla can get some fantastic acceleration from a standing start. Also, yes, as used in some ocean going ships, it can be good to use Diesel-electric with no transmission. That is, the Diesel engine drives an electric generator, and the electric power from the generator drives the electric motor to drive the propellers and move the ship. In this case the motor-generator combination provides essentially an ideal transmission -- "Look, Ma, no gears!". Tesla has done better on both power and range than I expected. Good for Tesla. But I would still be concerned about battery charging time -- there's no royal road shortcut to the energy that 4600 pound car needs, even if the braking captures kinetic energy. Or, driving at highway speeds requires pushing air out of the way and, then, putting a lot of velocity, thus, kinetic energy, into that air. Also will want A/C or heat for the car, and that's more energy. So, the batteries need to store a lot of energy. Then to charge the batteries, also need a lot of energy. Do some simple arithmetic and can discover that charging via 100 A at 240 V in the garage of a house will result in hours of recharging time. Okay then use a charging station: For a full charge in just a few minutes, that will be one heck of a powerful electrical connection. And, that charging current has to pass through the batteries which traditionally heats the batteries. Next worry: How long with the batteries last, and how much does it cost to replace them? So, mostly I'd be concerned about recharging time. For a trip to Grandma's 900 miles away, with a range per charge of 200 miles, charging time will be an issue. But Tesla's done better than I expected.
- easytiger 12y ago
  In europe, practically everyone would fly the 900 miles or take the train.
  - cjrp 12y ago
    Just to put that in perspective, 900 miles is ~London -> Vienna. 99% of people would fly/take the train.
  - 12y ago
gbog 12y ago
Here in Beijing there are special "un-official" taxi services that have Teslas. I was once in one of them, one the way to the airport. I was very silent, and looked a bit futuristic (all meters are actually screens) and kitsch ala eigthies: The whole car looks fat, plasticly cheap. I would not trust the door knob to always work for instance, and the seat are not giving this confident feeling, compared to normal European cars. It is also slightly ugly. But obviously that's just the diff between Europe and US on cars, and Tesla has nothing to do with it (but if Tesla wants to get market share in Europe, they have to make another model, or license their techno to someone else.)
- rgbrenner 12y ago
  that's an interesting view of teslas... anyway, they're not really having problems getting marketshare in europe: http://wallstcheatsheet.com/automobiles/tesla-powers-a-surge-in-electric-vehicle-sales-in-europe.html/?a=viewall http://wallstcheatsheet.com/automobiles/tesla-powers-a-surge... And at least when this article was written, China just edged out Europe for Tesla's second largest market: http://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckjones/2014/07/31/analysis-of-tesla-sales-by-geography/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckjones/2014/07/31/analysis-o...
- robmcm 12y ago
  I took a test drive with a few friends who have BMW, Mercs and they had the same impression. The cars they compete with in terms of cost in the UK (engine etc aside) the build quality and the interior is more line with a Ford at a quarter of the price.
- easytiger 12y ago
  > the whole car looks fat, plasticly cheap. That's every American car
  - justin66 12y ago
    BMW, Mercedes, and Jaguar (among others) are all struggling right now to find a new design direction. The most recent push to really change things, Chris Bangle's tenure at BMW, didn't really lead to a decisive new direction. A lot of people WANT boring shit.

44 points by Artemis2 12y ago

> This means that you don’t have to touch the accelerator during stop and go traffic because it will do it for you. Soon Model S owners will be able to change lanes by only tapping on the turn signal stalks. No, they do not have to buy a new Model S to get this feature, they can simply connect their car to a wi-fi connection and get firmware updates. As someone who grew up in NYC and never learned to drive that is not only really cool but immensely appealing.

eclipxe 12y ago
Really cool feature - the adaptive cruise control feature is now becoming an option on more mainstream cars, and it is one of those "how did I ever drive in traffic without this feature" things. I think many people don't get how incredible that feature alone is - it isn't fully autonomous, but it makes driving in serious traffic so much less stressful. Add in Tesla's auto lane change and lane keep and you're 80% of the way to self driving.
Animats 12y ago
* they can simply connect their car to a wi-fi connection and get firmware updates.* Scary thought. What could possibly go wrong? Automotive software should not have frequent updates.
- mschuster91 12y ago
  > Automotive software should not have frequent updates. Quite the contrary, I don't want to know how many integrated nav solutions or mediatainment systems are vulnerable to all sorts of exploits with no way to be updated except by an expensive visit to a service center.
  - Animats 12y ago
    Today, if it's vulnerable to an exploit, it's probably been exploited long before the vendor finds out about it. Patch-based security stopped working once the opposition became governments and organized crime, not script kiddies and email spammers.
robmcm 12y ago
I got adaptive cruise control in an Audi A3 last year and was amazed to find out it was first introduced in the mid 90s! That being said it feels very futuristic having a radar in your car and makes driving on the motorway a lot more pleasant. However I now seem to spend the brain cycles I was using on judging speed imagining up bugs that could cause me to accelerate into the car in front :/
- qooleot 12y ago
  This. I'd played with all sorts of leap second adjustments, time zone switching, etc. A really rolling road (Arizona has some of these) where the car might be one "roller" ahead of you but look a lot closer, then your car hits the brakes at the apex with a car tailing you.
  - robmcm 12y ago
    There is a warning in the manual about sharp corners. There are times when on coming cars could look like they are in your lane. The biggest issue is that it ignores stationary cars, so if you come around a corner to red traffic lights it would drive straight into any stationary cars. Which is why I only really use it on the motorways (highways).
- cjrp 12y ago
  Does it work if you're following a motorbike? I'm not sure how wide a vehicle it needs to get a decent radar return. Edit: Just looking at a Honda manual online[1], it says: "ACC may not recognize motorcycles or other small vehicles ahead of your vehicle". That's more than a little worrying. [1] https://techinfo.honda.com/rjanisis/pubs/om/JA0606/JA0606O00237A.pdf https://techinfo.honda.com/rjanisis/pubs/om/JA0606/JA0606O00...
  - robmcm 12y ago
    Mine tracks bikes well, I think it also uses a camera mounted above the rear view mirror. It also uses that camera to dip the headlights, which is often tricked by two lights close together (reflectors on bollards or traffic cones). It's also has to wait to see the headlights, where as I can tell they are coming a short time before.
cones688 12y ago
> This means that you don’t have to touch the accelerator during stop and go traffic because it will do it for you To be fair this kind of technology has been on top end Mercedes for a while (10yrs plus) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eU83G3OaJuU#t=115 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eU83G3OaJuU#t=115 I drove one a few summers ago as a chauffeur for Farmers Classic, it was all in/around LA so was incredible on jammed freeways, It's nothing new though or Tesla specific.
paganel 12y ago
> Soon Model S owners will be able to change lanes by only tapping on the turn signal stalks Not sure exactly how this will work: will the car change lane immediately (or just a few seconds after you turn on the signal) or will it first make sure that the driver behind you won't close the gap? Because if it doesn't do the second thing (i.e. making sure that the driver behind you will let you change the lane) then I'm not sure how it will work in cities with crazy traffic.
- robmcm 12y ago
  Quite a lot of cars have lane assist now, where they will have a light on the wing mirror if there is something in your blind spot. They also vibrate the wheel if you go over lanes and aid in steering your back. I imagine this is a combination of the two. My worry is how it deals with something like this http://www.op-online.de/bilder/2012/12/18/2669673/1360212316-baustelle_autobahn_dpa-1609.jpg http://www.op-online.de/bilder/2012/12/18/2669673/1360212316... Does it just stop?

dice 12y ago

I don't know about "brutally quick". Anyone who's driven an M3, S4, or any similar performance sedan isn't going to be blown away by the speed of the Model S. It's fast, but it isn't mind-blowing.

PhantomGremlin 12y ago
Well, there's always the Tesla P85D, which they briefly mention in the article. That's the real performance version. It's quite a bit faster at 0-60 mph than the M3, roughly 3.2 seconds vs 3.9 seconds. And the Tesla is quiet. Here's a great video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QERGldfZA5A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QERGldfZA5A I don't know how well a Tesla corners compared to German or Italian competition.
- hvidgaard 12y ago
  It will never hold up on the track. The battery can only handle the max load for a short amount of time, before the computer limits the engine and make the car more of a sunday driver. That's not a problem for every day driving, it just isn't comparable to other supercars on the track. It however means that for normal usage, it means you have the efficiency of an EV and the "burst" ability of a supercar.
- cpswan 12y ago
  Cornering on the P85D is pretty amazing due to the low centre of mass. I got to drive it on public roads rather than the track, so I didn't get to push too hard, but even then I was surprised how quickly I could hustle it through bends (for comparison my usual drive is a BMW Z3M Coupe, and I've been lucky enough to drive most of the present M cars on the Spartanburg track).
- feld 12y ago
  It feels pretty great in corners because the suspension keeps the car level. I don't have experience driving many other higher end cars to compare it to, though.
benihana 12y ago
Agreed, 0-60 in 5 seconds isn't slow, but it's not brutally fast by any stretch of the imagination. I'm less interested in the speed and more interested in the handling. I am a BMW guy through and through because they are just so much fun to drive and just feel right. How would you compare taking a Model S through the twisties to say an M3 or even a regular 3 series?

graycat 12y ago

Sure: As I remember from my college physics course in electricity and magnetism (E&M), a series wound electric motor has, with the simple mathematical model, infinite torque at stall, that is, not yet rotating. The torque falls off from infinity quickly as the motor starts to rotate. So, yes, the Tesla can get some fantastic acceleration from a standing start. Also, yes, as used in some ocean going ships, it can be good to use Diesel-electric with no transmission. That is, the Diesel engine drives an electric generator, and the electric power from the generator drives the electric motor to drive the propellers and move the ship. In this case the motor-generator combination provides essentially an ideal transmission -- "Look, Ma, no gears!". Tesla has done better on both power and range than I expected. Good for Tesla. But I would still be concerned about battery charging time -- there's no royal road shortcut to the energy that 4600 pound car needs, even if the braking captures kinetic energy. Or, driving at highway speeds requires pushing air out of the way and, then, putting a lot of velocity, thus, kinetic energy, into that air. Also will want A/C or heat for the car, and that's more energy. So, the batteries need to store a lot of energy. Then to charge the batteries, also need a lot of energy. Do some simple arithmetic and can discover that charging via 100 A at 240 V in the garage of a house will result in hours of recharging time. Okay then use a charging station: For a full charge in just a few minutes, that will be one heck of a powerful electrical connection. And, that charging current has to pass through the batteries which traditionally heats the batteries. Next worry: How long with the batteries last, and how much does it cost to replace them? So, mostly I'd be concerned about recharging time. For a trip to Grandma's 900 miles away, with a range per charge of 200 miles, charging time will be an issue. But Tesla's done better than I expected.

easytiger 12y ago
In europe, practically everyone would fly the 900 miles or take the train.
- cjrp 12y ago
  Just to put that in perspective, 900 miles is ~London -> Vienna. 99% of people would fly/take the train.
- 12y ago

gbog 12y ago

Here in Beijing there are special "un-official" taxi services that have Teslas. I was once in one of them, one the way to the airport. I was very silent, and looked a bit futuristic (all meters are actually screens) and kitsch ala eigthies: The whole car looks fat, plasticly cheap. I would not trust the door knob to always work for instance, and the seat are not giving this confident feeling, compared to normal European cars. It is also slightly ugly. But obviously that's just the diff between Europe and US on cars, and Tesla has nothing to do with it (but if Tesla wants to get market share in Europe, they have to make another model, or license their techno to someone else.)

rgbrenner 12y ago
that's an interesting view of teslas... anyway, they're not really having problems getting marketshare in europe: http://wallstcheatsheet.com/automobiles/tesla-powers-a-surge-in-electric-vehicle-sales-in-europe.html/?a=viewall http://wallstcheatsheet.com/automobiles/tesla-powers-a-surge... And at least when this article was written, China just edged out Europe for Tesla's second largest market: http://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckjones/2014/07/31/analysis-of-tesla-sales-by-geography/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckjones/2014/07/31/analysis-o...
robmcm 12y ago
I took a test drive with a few friends who have BMW, Mercs and they had the same impression. The cars they compete with in terms of cost in the UK (engine etc aside) the build quality and the interior is more line with a Ford at a quarter of the price.
easytiger 12y ago
> the whole car looks fat, plasticly cheap. That's every American car
- justin66 12y ago
  BMW, Mercedes, and Jaguar (among others) are all struggling right now to find a new design direction. The most recent push to really change things, Chris Bangle's tenure at BMW, didn't really lead to a decisive new direction. A lot of people WANT boring shit.