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Another B.S. article about negotiating IT salary's. If IT salary's kept pace back before the Dot bomb days everyone would be making 150k starting. Here is why

Another B.S. article about negotiating IT salary's. If IT salary's kept pace back before the Dot bomb days everyone would be making 150k starting. Here is why we don't IT has for the most part never been a money maker of a lot of companies. They see it as a loss leader. IT is seen as the "Oh boy here comes the IT budget again." Unless of course your business is making software for the masses. But then I have been at 3 companies like that and IT was always the first on the chopping block. You are paid only as much as it takes to replace you, unless you walk on water then you should be at Google or FaceBook. The only way to get a 20 to 25k raise is to find another job. Unless of course you are doing the job of 4 people which in IT 99.9% of the times you are. Don't believe me? Go ask for a 20k raise if their eyebrows shoot up like Mr. Spock then you know how much you are worth. I sure hope you have another job lined up because that's the queue to them you are looking. This has been my experience and I have done exactly what I have stated above. I now do security and compliance. No more wake up calls, no more you can't go on vacation because Oct. through January is the time of the year where we make our money. Oh and that 100K salary mark gets very hard to justify every year especially when the CFO looks at the books and has a list of who is making over 100K per year. Unless of course you live in California and NewYork then that's welfare wages.

phamilton 12y ago
Are we differentiating between IT and Engineering and Operations? I think OP was referring to Engineers and Operations at software companies, not IT at an accounting firm.
skeoh 12y ago
Sorry to be pedantic but it is the "cue" to them that you are looking, not "queue".
- jsprogrammer 12y ago
  Kind of undercuts all the points made. Also, if you walk on water you should be working at Google or FaceBook? Hunh?
  - upvote-hero 12y ago
    upvote-hero to the rescue
  - eru 12y ago
    You don't have to walk on water to work at either of them. With a bit of coaching, the median HN member would qualify.
tomp 12y ago
> IT has for the most part never been a money maker of a lot of companies. They see it as a loss leader. Exactly. I'm pretty sure that IT is harder and requires more training/practice than e.g. finance or sales, but profits from those two are very easy to quantify and it's quite obvious who the deal-maker was, whereas IT is mostly teamwork and doesn't have obvious profits.
- jsprogrammer 12y ago
  Shut down the IT and watch all those profits disappear. As in, finance/sales guy can't pull up his daily/weekly/monthly/quarterly/yearly numbers. Oh, and your customers are gone too because you can no longer deliver any product or added-value. So, no income (except investments).
  - vacri 12y ago
    There are very few unnecessary jobs in today's economically-rationalised world. Fire the cleaning staff, and see how long your other staff hang around with piling-up garbage and a lack of toilet cleaning/stocking. Fire the receptionists and watch as a ton of work moves elsewhere because you're too hard to get hold of.
    - alandarev 12y ago
      A debatable subject, but still, have a look at: http://libcom.org/library/phenomenon-bullshit-jobs-david-graeber http://libcom.org/library/phenomenon-bullshit-jobs-david-gra...
      - vacri 12y ago
        That article seems to start with the assumption that the only worthwhile jobs are manufacturing jobs. It's taking a bit of a different slant in context, I think. Above I'm talking about how all jobs in some way enhance the company's bottom line, taking a company-centric approach. The article is talking on a societal level. Corporate lawyers don't help the public much, but they sure as hell help the companies that hire them - it may be a 'bullshit' job, but it's a 'necessary' job (from the fiscal point of view). Still, I think it's ironic that in one paragraph, dog-washers and pizza deliverers get caned for being bullshit jobs, and two paragraphs later the author bemoans the loss of workers that move things (pizza...) and maintain things (dogs...) :)
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
vinceguidry 12y ago
I got a $15K raise last month, from $60 to $75K. I expect a much bigger one next year. It's not impossible to get those raises, but you have to align your thinking with the way the company operates, have supporters in the company, and bring real value to the table. If you're just checking boxes or asking for more money "just because", then you deserve the arched eyebrow you're bound to get.
- hnriot 12y ago
  a 25% raise is unlikely next year, sounds to me that this was more of a salary adjustment than a raise which are typically between 3-9%. At your salary level it's not uncommon to have adjustments to bring you in line with others in your team. Possibly they started you low to see how it would work out.
  - dailo10 12y ago
    or he could go get a competing offer with a 50% raise ;)
  - vinceguidry 12y ago
    Whatever you want to call it, I expect a bigger one next year.
    - xienze 12y ago
      So, just curious, but what makes you so confident you'll be getting back-to-back massive payraises? And when do you think it'll stop?
      - vinceguidry 12y ago
        Hard to explain in any kind of useful way. Let's just say I hack my career like I hack code. I don't expect it to ever stop.
        eru 12y ago
imaginenore 12y ago
^ This guy is right. Changing your job will get you a much higher raise than asking. In my own experience I only got a significant raise once in my career - I asked for $90/hr when I was making 80/hr, and they gave it to my to my surprise. That's around $20K/year.
noname123 12y ago
(Sigh). I wish I was making 150K starting salary. Unfortunately, I'm not and I live in BosWash which makes me part of the below-welfare-wage numbers. I wish folks could have more attitudes like NinjaTime so that they can become the enlightened masses. Nothing is more discouraging than watching Joe and Jane from high school and college getting promotions at their consulting, law and medical careers knowing that I was way smarter than they were. Cue Kurt Vonneghan, "The real horror is waking up one day and realizing your high school class is running the country"; well, I'm just slightly disgusted that just the undeserving plebes, not the popular high school kids are buying McMansions and starter luxury cars! Well, at least I'm part of the enlightened. I got my security clearance (no H1B competition), my personal contracting sole proprietorship (line-by-line deduction), Cisco/Oracle/MCSE certificates (certified scrum-master), and I intend to stick it all the way to the Man!
- anon123anon 12y ago
  > knowing that I was way smarter than they were. You're not smarter than them. If you were, you would have thought about your career, instead of sloppily stumbling into the first thing that appealed to the teenage version of you.
Domenic_S 12y ago
> They see it as a loss leader. Cost center, not loss leader. It helps to be in an IT-focused company, vs a company that has an IT department. I've been in both and the former is vastly better.
johnward 12y ago
"The only way to get a 20 to 25k raise is to find another job. Unless of course you are doing the job of 4 people which in IT 99.9% of the times you are. Don't believe me? Go ask for a 20k raise if their eyebrows shoot up like Mr. Spock then you know how much you are worth. I sure hope you have another job lined up because that's the queue to them you are looking." I used this technique to get that much of an increase. First found a job that I was actually willing to quit for. Went to my boss with the offer. They made a counter that I accepted. Without that offer I would have gotten probably 2-3% yearly. People get too caught up in trying not to hurt their employers feelings by threatening to leave. Who cares if they know you were looking for another job. It's a business decision. I've tried to leave more than once at my current position and they don't treat me any differently. The key is to be prepared to actually leave if they call your bluff. Also this probably means I was severely underpaid to begin with.
- Beached 12y ago
  I used this technique as well, it didn't end up in a raise or another job position, or any change at all. They just said no. I ended up taking that other job offer I had lined up since it was clear the company views its workers as replaceable cogs rather than valued contributors.
  - bengali3 12y ago
    I believe you missed a key point of this technique >First found a job that I was actually willing to quit for. Check out BATNA - all about improving your Second option

phamilton 12y ago

Are we differentiating between IT and Engineering and Operations? I think OP was referring to Engineers and Operations at software companies, not IT at an accounting firm.

skeoh 12y ago

Sorry to be pedantic but it is the "cue" to them that you are looking, not "queue".

jsprogrammer 12y ago
Kind of undercuts all the points made. Also, if you walk on water you should be working at Google or FaceBook? Hunh?
- upvote-hero 12y ago
  upvote-hero to the rescue
- eru 12y ago
  You don't have to walk on water to work at either of them. With a bit of coaching, the median HN member would qualify.

tomp 12y ago

> IT has for the most part never been a money maker of a lot of companies. They see it as a loss leader. Exactly. I'm pretty sure that IT is harder and requires more training/practice than e.g. finance or sales, but profits from those two are very easy to quantify and it's quite obvious who the deal-maker was, whereas IT is mostly teamwork and doesn't have obvious profits.

jsprogrammer 12y ago
Shut down the IT and watch all those profits disappear. As in, finance/sales guy can't pull up his daily/weekly/monthly/quarterly/yearly numbers. Oh, and your customers are gone too because you can no longer deliver any product or added-value. So, no income (except investments).
- vacri 12y ago
  There are very few unnecessary jobs in today's economically-rationalised world. Fire the cleaning staff, and see how long your other staff hang around with piling-up garbage and a lack of toilet cleaning/stocking. Fire the receptionists and watch as a ton of work moves elsewhere because you're too hard to get hold of.
  - alandarev 12y ago
    A debatable subject, but still, have a look at: http://libcom.org/library/phenomenon-bullshit-jobs-david-graeber http://libcom.org/library/phenomenon-bullshit-jobs-david-gra...
    - vacri 12y ago
      That article seems to start with the assumption that the only worthwhile jobs are manufacturing jobs. It's taking a bit of a different slant in context, I think. Above I'm talking about how all jobs in some way enhance the company's bottom line, taking a company-centric approach. The article is talking on a societal level. Corporate lawyers don't help the public much, but they sure as hell help the companies that hire them - it may be a 'bullshit' job, but it's a 'necessary' job (from the fiscal point of view). Still, I think it's ironic that in one paragraph, dog-washers and pizza deliverers get caned for being bullshit jobs, and two paragraphs later the author bemoans the loss of workers that move things (pizza...) and maintain things (dogs...) :)

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

vinceguidry 12y ago

I got a $15K raise last month, from $60 to $75K. I expect a much bigger one next year. It's not impossible to get those raises, but you have to align your thinking with the way the company operates, have supporters in the company, and bring real value to the table. If you're just checking boxes or asking for more money "just because", then you deserve the arched eyebrow you're bound to get.

hnriot 12y ago
a 25% raise is unlikely next year, sounds to me that this was more of a salary adjustment than a raise which are typically between 3-9%. At your salary level it's not uncommon to have adjustments to bring you in line with others in your team. Possibly they started you low to see how it would work out.
- dailo10 12y ago
  or he could go get a competing offer with a 50% raise ;)
- vinceguidry 12y ago
  Whatever you want to call it, I expect a bigger one next year.
  - xienze 12y ago
    So, just curious, but what makes you so confident you'll be getting back-to-back massive payraises? And when do you think it'll stop?
    - vinceguidry 12y ago
      Hard to explain in any kind of useful way. Let's just say I hack my career like I hack code. I don't expect it to ever stop.
      - eru 12y ago

imaginenore 12y ago

^ This guy is right. Changing your job will get you a much higher raise than asking. In my own experience I only got a significant raise once in my career - I asked for $90/hr when I was making 80/hr, and they gave it to my to my surprise. That's around $20K/year.

noname123 12y ago

(Sigh). I wish I was making 150K starting salary. Unfortunately, I'm not and I live in BosWash which makes me part of the below-welfare-wage numbers. I wish folks could have more attitudes like NinjaTime so that they can become the enlightened masses. Nothing is more discouraging than watching Joe and Jane from high school and college getting promotions at their consulting, law and medical careers knowing that I was way smarter than they were. Cue Kurt Vonneghan, "The real horror is waking up one day and realizing your high school class is running the country"; well, I'm just slightly disgusted that just the undeserving plebes, not the popular high school kids are buying McMansions and starter luxury cars! Well, at least I'm part of the enlightened. I got my security clearance (no H1B competition), my personal contracting sole proprietorship (line-by-line deduction), Cisco/Oracle/MCSE certificates (certified scrum-master), and I intend to stick it all the way to the Man!

anon123anon 12y ago
> knowing that I was way smarter than they were. You're not smarter than them. If you were, you would have thought about your career, instead of sloppily stumbling into the first thing that appealed to the teenage version of you.

Domenic_S 12y ago

> They see it as a loss leader. Cost center, not loss leader. It helps to be in an IT-focused company, vs a company that has an IT department. I've been in both and the former is vastly better.

johnward 12y ago

"The only way to get a 20 to 25k raise is to find another job. Unless of course you are doing the job of 4 people which in IT 99.9% of the times you are. Don't believe me? Go ask for a 20k raise if their eyebrows shoot up like Mr. Spock then you know how much you are worth. I sure hope you have another job lined up because that's the queue to them you are looking." I used this technique to get that much of an increase. First found a job that I was actually willing to quit for. Went to my boss with the offer. They made a counter that I accepted. Without that offer I would have gotten probably 2-3% yearly. People get too caught up in trying not to hurt their employers feelings by threatening to leave. Who cares if they know you were looking for another job. It's a business decision. I've tried to leave more than once at my current position and they don't treat me any differently. The key is to be prepared to actually leave if they call your bluff. Also this probably means I was severely underpaid to begin with.

Beached 12y ago
I used this technique as well, it didn't end up in a raise or another job position, or any change at all. They just said no. I ended up taking that other job offer I had lined up since it was clear the company views its workers as replaceable cogs rather than valued contributors.
- bengali3 12y ago
  I believe you missed a key point of this technique >First found a job that I was actually willing to quit for. Check out BATNA - all about improving your Second option