4 ms·

The NSA behaves very hostile against everyone not from the US. As an EU resident I think it is very important to have an idea on the lines the NSA is crossing t

by askmike 12y ago

The NSA behaves very hostile against everyone not from the US. As an EU resident I think it is very important to have an idea on the lines the NSA is crossing to protect US citizens that might put me at risk.

dogma1138 12y ago
But that puts it under espionage not "whistleblowing", we don't call a N. Korean scientist that defected to the west who spills light on N. Korea's nuclear program a whistleblower, we call him a defector and a spy. Intelligence Agencies act on the behalf of their respective nations, there is nothing surprising about the US spying on the EU and vice versa. As we already know the extent of the collection programmes the NSA operates i really do not see any real value in spewing more and more content about it, especially things that start to touch on the operational know-how of such programmes. As much as we don't like the Americans spying on us there are far worse nations out there that i would actually fear if they will ever gain even a shred of the capabilities the NSA and some other western allied nations have. Sadly this incident will be a very bad thing to whistleblowing in the long run, good luck passing any whistleblowing protection laws in the US (and many other countries including in the EU who took notice) any time soon. While i do respect the sentiment behind Snowden's leak, I do actually have a bone to pick with how it was executed. There were NSA leakers before him, there will hopefully be some after him that will speak out when a line is crossed. However grabbing which ever documents you can put your hands on, and then seeking shelter in what is now a defacto hostile state isn't really responsible behavior. Just few years before Snowden we already had an NSA leak from which the "secret interpretation of the FISA act" fiasco was made public. Snowden could've made the same effective impact with a handful of slides, not 1000's of documents (if not more, some numbers which were flying in the early days of the leak pointed at anywhere between 50 and 250 thousands documents) of which many probably contain actionable information which i would dare to say puts the EU as a organisation, and you as an individual at more risk than anything the NSA will ever did or do.
- stefantalpalaru 12y ago
  > there is nothing surprising about the US spying on the EU and vice versa Yes, the comforting normality of the cold war between the US and everybody else. Just don't be surprised when US products and services become a target of widespread boycotts around the world.
  - dogma1138 12y ago
    The same newspaper reported that Germany's BND had active wire taps on 2 US secretaries of state, (Hillary) Clinton and Kerry, as well heavily spying on NATO members like Turkey. Snowden's own documents showed many EU countries (including all of the enlightened Nordic ones) who actively supported the US spying in order to gain intelligence on their own citizens and on other EU members, heck Denmark joined the NSA programme to spy on freaking Belgium. The harsh truth is that everyone spies, even Iceland has some dude in an office some where who's in charge of their intelligence gathering. The means and effectiveness vary between nations but considering that the UK, Germany and France have intelligence services which are considered amongst of the best in the world only a fool would write this off as some US fling due to post cold war PTSD.
  - hox 12y ago
    You are living with blinders on if you don't think every state in the world has espionage programs for both offensive and defensive purposes.
    - nitrogen 12y ago
      You are living with blinders on if you expect the civilians most harmed by these programs to stay silent and subservient.
- moe 12y ago
  not 1000's of documents [...] of which many probably contain actionable information which i would dare to say puts the EU as a organisation, and you as an individual at more risk than anything the NSA will ever did or do. Fearmonger much? So far my statistical risk to be killed in a train accident is significantly higher than being killed in a terrorist attack. And somehow it has been this way since before the internet was even invented. How did the internet make the terrorists suddenly so much more dangerous that we now need mass surveillance to defend against them?
  - dogma1138 12y ago
    What do terrorists have to do with anything? Nation states are far more likely to launch a cyber attack against the EU than a terrorist organisation. And since when mass surveillance is a new thing? The US, some European allies, Russia and any other capable country were conducting mass surveillance since pretty much WW2 if not earlier. Tapping phone lines including the transatlantic phone cables since the 50's, opening millions of letters each year and far more. Nations have always been spying on each other and on their people, I am not saying that this is right, and that it's justified in every case but it's the reality we've been living in since the middle of the 20th century if not during the entire recorded history. But sure keep thinking that posting every document including ones that deal with operational aspects of the programme is justified. Next time when the EU decided to duke it out with Russia over the gas piplines and trade agreements it might find it self on the receiving end of such programmes far more hostile than the NSA tapping a Belgium ISP. P.S. H/N Don't forget to bury this comment with down votes too since well screw the content rules, your political opinions and narrow world views are under attack. P.S. 2.0 Just for the kick of it according to data from the ERA(European Railroad Agency) the total number of deaths in train accidents from 2000 is 319, number of people who died in terrorist attacks in during the same period in Europe is 338+(stopped counting once I've got pass 319..). Please note that this isn't the number of EU citizens who died in terror attacks(which is several times greater), but the number of casualties for attacks on European soil. Of course if you count the Madrid train bombings as a train accident you are welcomed to subtract 191 people of that list and add it to your get hit by a train statistic.
    - 12y ago

by askmike 12y ago

dogma1138 12y ago

But that puts it under espionage not "whistleblowing", we don't call a N. Korean scientist that defected to the west who spills light on N. Korea's nuclear program a whistleblower, we call him a defector and a spy. Intelligence Agencies act on the behalf of their respective nations, there is nothing surprising about the US spying on the EU and vice versa. As we already know the extent of the collection programmes the NSA operates i really do not see any real value in spewing more and more content about it, especially things that start to touch on the operational know-how of such programmes. As much as we don't like the Americans spying on us there are far worse nations out there that i would actually fear if they will ever gain even a shred of the capabilities the NSA and some other western allied nations have. Sadly this incident will be a very bad thing to whistleblowing in the long run, good luck passing any whistleblowing protection laws in the US (and many other countries including in the EU who took notice) any time soon. While i do respect the sentiment behind Snowden's leak, I do actually have a bone to pick with how it was executed. There were NSA leakers before him, there will hopefully be some after him that will speak out when a line is crossed. However grabbing which ever documents you can put your hands on, and then seeking shelter in what is now a defacto hostile state isn't really responsible behavior. Just few years before Snowden we already had an NSA leak from which the "secret interpretation of the FISA act" fiasco was made public. Snowden could've made the same effective impact with a handful of slides, not 1000's of documents (if not more, some numbers which were flying in the early days of the leak pointed at anywhere between 50 and 250 thousands documents) of which many probably contain actionable information which i would dare to say puts the EU as a organisation, and you as an individual at more risk than anything the NSA will ever did or do.

stefantalpalaru 12y ago
> there is nothing surprising about the US spying on the EU and vice versa Yes, the comforting normality of the cold war between the US and everybody else. Just don't be surprised when US products and services become a target of widespread boycotts around the world.
- dogma1138 12y ago
  The same newspaper reported that Germany's BND had active wire taps on 2 US secretaries of state, (Hillary) Clinton and Kerry, as well heavily spying on NATO members like Turkey. Snowden's own documents showed many EU countries (including all of the enlightened Nordic ones) who actively supported the US spying in order to gain intelligence on their own citizens and on other EU members, heck Denmark joined the NSA programme to spy on freaking Belgium. The harsh truth is that everyone spies, even Iceland has some dude in an office some where who's in charge of their intelligence gathering. The means and effectiveness vary between nations but considering that the UK, Germany and France have intelligence services which are considered amongst of the best in the world only a fool would write this off as some US fling due to post cold war PTSD.
- hox 12y ago
  You are living with blinders on if you don't think every state in the world has espionage programs for both offensive and defensive purposes.
  - nitrogen 12y ago
    You are living with blinders on if you expect the civilians most harmed by these programs to stay silent and subservient.
moe 12y ago
not 1000's of documents [...] of which many probably contain actionable information which i would dare to say puts the EU as a organisation, and you as an individual at more risk than anything the NSA will ever did or do. Fearmonger much? So far my statistical risk to be killed in a train accident is significantly higher than being killed in a terrorist attack. And somehow it has been this way since before the internet was even invented. How did the internet make the terrorists suddenly so much more dangerous that we now need mass surveillance to defend against them?
- dogma1138 12y ago
  What do terrorists have to do with anything? Nation states are far more likely to launch a cyber attack against the EU than a terrorist organisation. And since when mass surveillance is a new thing? The US, some European allies, Russia and any other capable country were conducting mass surveillance since pretty much WW2 if not earlier. Tapping phone lines including the transatlantic phone cables since the 50's, opening millions of letters each year and far more. Nations have always been spying on each other and on their people, I am not saying that this is right, and that it's justified in every case but it's the reality we've been living in since the middle of the 20th century if not during the entire recorded history. But sure keep thinking that posting every document including ones that deal with operational aspects of the programme is justified. Next time when the EU decided to duke it out with Russia over the gas piplines and trade agreements it might find it self on the receiving end of such programmes far more hostile than the NSA tapping a Belgium ISP. P.S. H/N Don't forget to bury this comment with down votes too since well screw the content rules, your political opinions and narrow world views are under attack. P.S. 2.0 Just for the kick of it according to data from the ERA(European Railroad Agency) the total number of deaths in train accidents from 2000 is 319, number of people who died in terrorist attacks in during the same period in Europe is 338+(stopped counting once I've got pass 319..). Please note that this isn't the number of EU citizens who died in terror attacks(which is several times greater), but the number of casualties for attacks on European soil. Of course if you count the Madrid train bombings as a train accident you are welcomed to subtract 191 people of that list and add it to your get hit by a train statistic.
  - 12y ago