4 ms·

How is this whistleblowing? What benefit do we as the public gain from this knowledge?

by benstein 12y ago

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
thomasahle 12y ago
This hurts everybody in the world. Americans too.
teamhappy 12y ago
> What benefit do we as the public gain from this knowledge? I'm from the EU, but I can imagine that, given that some of the NSA's operations today are only semi-constitutional, where these operations are supposed to be going is relevant to the debate.
moe 12y ago
I would ask the other way round. Why should this knowledge be hidden from the public?
- EpicEng 12y ago
  The obvious answer is that it becomes much harder for the NSA (and related entities) to do their job when their tactics and capabilities are known to the world. And yes, this is their job, and there's nothing wrong with it. Domestic spying is something that needs to be reigned in and tightly controlled, but to think that everyone should know everything is just naive and shows little understanding of how the real world actually operates.
  - moe 12y ago
    The obvious answer is that it becomes much harder for the NSA (and related entities) to do their job when their tactics and capabilities are known to the world. Harder as in how? That handwavy excuse gets thrown around a lot, I have yet to hear someone back it up with anything tangible. Domestic spying is something that needs to be reigned in and tightly controlled Well, we tried with blind faith for a while. Turns out that didn't work all too well. So, how do you propose we control something that we are not allowed to know anything about?
    - EpicEng 12y ago
      "Well, we tried with blind faith for a while. Turns out that didn't work all too well. So, how do you propose we control something that we are not allowed to know anything about?" Agreed, with the first sentence at least. Let's be real though; no incarnation of oversight is going to have you and I involved directly, nor should it. You cannot expect the populous to be sufficiently educated on the intricacies of foreign policy and global threats. So my proposal would be for the lawmakers to propose a better form of oversight which includes strict provisions for surveillance, especially the domestic variety. These provisions also cannot hamstring the NSA or the like; there has to be balance. The parent comes off as a proponent of opening up the floodgates. That's ridiculous and it will never happen (nor should it). You cannot have a system which A) allows for full disclosure, and B) does not weaken our ability to defend ourselves.
      - bandushrew 12y ago
        "You cannot expect the populous to be sufficiently educated on the intricacies of foreign policy and global threats. So my proposal would be for the lawmakers to propose a better form of oversight which includes strict provisions for surveillance, especially the domestic variety. These provisions also cannot hamstring the NSA or the like; there has to be balance." but then, if you and I (the "populous") aren't allowed to know what they are trying to achieve, or how they are doing it, how on earth are we supposed to have any faith in the oversight that "lawmakers" provide? I cannot overstate how strongly I abhor the "you cannot expect the populous..." type arguments when used to continue keeping them in the dark about matters for which THEY HAVE ULTIMATE RESPONSIBIILITY. if "the populous" is expected to select lawmakers based on the quality of the job they do, then "the populous" sure as HELL needs to have the information on the intricacies of foreign policy and global threats made available to them, and the response that their lawmakers support.
- username 12y ago
  I agree. I don't believe this report includes anything that could pose a legitimate threat to national security. If the NSA has begun militarizing the internet, the public has a right to know.
krapp 12y ago
Snowden revelations have become a media franchise in their own right. This is not about public gain anymore, it's about fame and revenue on the part of the outlets covering the stories.
askmike 12y ago
The NSA behaves very hostile against everyone not from the US. As an EU resident I think it is very important to have an idea on the lines the NSA is crossing to protect US citizens that might put me at risk.
- dogma1138 12y ago
  But that puts it under espionage not "whistleblowing", we don't call a N. Korean scientist that defected to the west who spills light on N. Korea's nuclear program a whistleblower, we call him a defector and a spy. Intelligence Agencies act on the behalf of their respective nations, there is nothing surprising about the US spying on the EU and vice versa. As we already know the extent of the collection programmes the NSA operates i really do not see any real value in spewing more and more content about it, especially things that start to touch on the operational know-how of such programmes. As much as we don't like the Americans spying on us there are far worse nations out there that i would actually fear if they will ever gain even a shred of the capabilities the NSA and some other western allied nations have. Sadly this incident will be a very bad thing to whistleblowing in the long run, good luck passing any whistleblowing protection laws in the US (and many other countries including in the EU who took notice) any time soon. While i do respect the sentiment behind Snowden's leak, I do actually have a bone to pick with how it was executed. There were NSA leakers before him, there will hopefully be some after him that will speak out when a line is crossed. However grabbing which ever documents you can put your hands on, and then seeking shelter in what is now a defacto hostile state isn't really responsible behavior. Just few years before Snowden we already had an NSA leak from which the "secret interpretation of the FISA act" fiasco was made public. Snowden could've made the same effective impact with a handful of slides, not 1000's of documents (if not more, some numbers which were flying in the early days of the leak pointed at anywhere between 50 and 250 thousands documents) of which many probably contain actionable information which i would dare to say puts the EU as a organisation, and you as an individual at more risk than anything the NSA will ever did or do.
  - stefantalpalaru 12y ago
    > there is nothing surprising about the US spying on the EU and vice versa Yes, the comforting normality of the cold war between the US and everybody else. Just don't be surprised when US products and services become a target of widespread boycotts around the world.
matt4077 12y ago
Belgacom was also targeted because its networks are a hub for non-Europeans roaming on the continent – including US citizens. Since this is the British intelligence service, US citizens aren't protected. Remember as well that one of the CIA's targets in 2014 was the US Senate. Anything that damages the national security complex is a benefit to the US public.

How is this whistleblowing? What benefit do we as the public gain from this knowledge?

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

thomasahle 12y ago

This hurts everybody in the world. Americans too.

teamhappy 12y ago

> What benefit do we as the public gain from this knowledge? I'm from the EU, but I can imagine that, given that some of the NSA's operations today are only semi-constitutional, where these operations are supposed to be going is relevant to the debate.

moe 12y ago

I would ask the other way round. Why should this knowledge be hidden from the public?

EpicEng 12y ago
The obvious answer is that it becomes much harder for the NSA (and related entities) to do their job when their tactics and capabilities are known to the world. And yes, this is their job, and there's nothing wrong with it. Domestic spying is something that needs to be reigned in and tightly controlled, but to think that everyone should know everything is just naive and shows little understanding of how the real world actually operates.
- moe 12y ago
  The obvious answer is that it becomes much harder for the NSA (and related entities) to do their job when their tactics and capabilities are known to the world. Harder as in how? That handwavy excuse gets thrown around a lot, I have yet to hear someone back it up with anything tangible. Domestic spying is something that needs to be reigned in and tightly controlled Well, we tried with blind faith for a while. Turns out that didn't work all too well. So, how do you propose we control something that we are not allowed to know anything about?
  - EpicEng 12y ago
    "Well, we tried with blind faith for a while. Turns out that didn't work all too well. So, how do you propose we control something that we are not allowed to know anything about?" Agreed, with the first sentence at least. Let's be real though; no incarnation of oversight is going to have you and I involved directly, nor should it. You cannot expect the populous to be sufficiently educated on the intricacies of foreign policy and global threats. So my proposal would be for the lawmakers to propose a better form of oversight which includes strict provisions for surveillance, especially the domestic variety. These provisions also cannot hamstring the NSA or the like; there has to be balance. The parent comes off as a proponent of opening up the floodgates. That's ridiculous and it will never happen (nor should it). You cannot have a system which A) allows for full disclosure, and B) does not weaken our ability to defend ourselves.
    - bandushrew 12y ago
      "You cannot expect the populous to be sufficiently educated on the intricacies of foreign policy and global threats. So my proposal would be for the lawmakers to propose a better form of oversight which includes strict provisions for surveillance, especially the domestic variety. These provisions also cannot hamstring the NSA or the like; there has to be balance." but then, if you and I (the "populous") aren't allowed to know what they are trying to achieve, or how they are doing it, how on earth are we supposed to have any faith in the oversight that "lawmakers" provide? I cannot overstate how strongly I abhor the "you cannot expect the populous..." type arguments when used to continue keeping them in the dark about matters for which THEY HAVE ULTIMATE RESPONSIBIILITY. if "the populous" is expected to select lawmakers based on the quality of the job they do, then "the populous" sure as HELL needs to have the information on the intricacies of foreign policy and global threats made available to them, and the response that their lawmakers support.
username 12y ago
I agree. I don't believe this report includes anything that could pose a legitimate threat to national security. If the NSA has begun militarizing the internet, the public has a right to know.

krapp 12y ago

Snowden revelations have become a media franchise in their own right. This is not about public gain anymore, it's about fame and revenue on the part of the outlets covering the stories.

askmike 12y ago

The NSA behaves very hostile against everyone not from the US. As an EU resident I think it is very important to have an idea on the lines the NSA is crossing to protect US citizens that might put me at risk.

dogma1138 12y ago
But that puts it under espionage not "whistleblowing", we don't call a N. Korean scientist that defected to the west who spills light on N. Korea's nuclear program a whistleblower, we call him a defector and a spy. Intelligence Agencies act on the behalf of their respective nations, there is nothing surprising about the US spying on the EU and vice versa. As we already know the extent of the collection programmes the NSA operates i really do not see any real value in spewing more and more content about it, especially things that start to touch on the operational know-how of such programmes. As much as we don't like the Americans spying on us there are far worse nations out there that i would actually fear if they will ever gain even a shred of the capabilities the NSA and some other western allied nations have. Sadly this incident will be a very bad thing to whistleblowing in the long run, good luck passing any whistleblowing protection laws in the US (and many other countries including in the EU who took notice) any time soon. While i do respect the sentiment behind Snowden's leak, I do actually have a bone to pick with how it was executed. There were NSA leakers before him, there will hopefully be some after him that will speak out when a line is crossed. However grabbing which ever documents you can put your hands on, and then seeking shelter in what is now a defacto hostile state isn't really responsible behavior. Just few years before Snowden we already had an NSA leak from which the "secret interpretation of the FISA act" fiasco was made public. Snowden could've made the same effective impact with a handful of slides, not 1000's of documents (if not more, some numbers which were flying in the early days of the leak pointed at anywhere between 50 and 250 thousands documents) of which many probably contain actionable information which i would dare to say puts the EU as a organisation, and you as an individual at more risk than anything the NSA will ever did or do.
- stefantalpalaru 12y ago
  > there is nothing surprising about the US spying on the EU and vice versa Yes, the comforting normality of the cold war between the US and everybody else. Just don't be surprised when US products and services become a target of widespread boycotts around the world.

matt4077 12y ago

Belgacom was also targeted because its networks are a hub for non-Europeans roaming on the continent – including US citizens. Since this is the British intelligence service, US citizens aren't protected. Remember as well that one of the CIA's targets in 2014 was the US Senate. Anything that damages the national security complex is a benefit to the US public.