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> Regarding enterprise software, as a user you can say what you thin about the software, but how can you make claims about how things might be better? Because

> Regarding enterprise software, as a user you can say what you thin about the software, but how can you make claims about how things might be better? Because I'm the USER! If we're hitting a language barrier I apologize but enterprise software is for the user. Surely this cannot be disputed. > You could only make that sort of claim if you understood something about what it was like to write that software. NO! IMO, this is an insane way to think about client software! The user doesn't care about the technology nor the hardships involved in shipping said software! This is why software sucks! I can sympathize if you work at a shitty company with a shitty boss, believe me I can. But no, I feel your software should die if this is your ethos. Let a company who cares about its users take those reins! EDIT: grammar

noelwelsh 12y ago
> I apologize but enterprise software is for the user. Surely this cannot be disputed. Nope. The reason enterprise software sucks is because it isn't worth making it not suck. And the reason for that is there is a huge disconnect (many layers of management) between the person who buys the software and those that use it. Thus the sucktitude of the software is largely irrelevant for purchasing decisions because the buyer never experiences the pain of using it. This is starting to change as people get more experience with quality consumer software, and such software (e.g. Dropbox) begins to invade the enterprise.
swatow 12y ago
I'm not arguing against your right to complain that software is bad from the user's perspective. But that wasn't your point. You claimed there was something wrong with the software industry, that their failure to produce better software was in some way related to your original post regarding faddishness in the software industry. That's what I'm arguing against. I'm saying that you can't know the reasons why software sucks unless you've worked as a programmer (or have some other equivalent way of knowing, e.g. being a product manager).
- eropple 12y ago
  I don't really have a problem with anything he's saying. It's not even a secret that we culturally care only dimly, if at all, about the people who are receiving the photons we spew out of their screens, and we are the worse for it (look at how often people kvetch about PMs who want things that are hard but obviously better for the user). We're too busy looking inward and bragging about our build systems to muster any empathy for people outside our clique. Your attempts to shut him down with "well you're not there, man" are offensive to me, and I do have the resume to hurdle your arbitrary no-complaints bar. I don't have to be the employee of an oil company to know that regulatory capture's a thing, he doesn't need to be writing a bunch of leet node.js to know that few people working on anything in tech gives a single solitary crap about him or anybody else using their stuff past the buying point. He's right to be mad about what we, as a culture, foist on our users. It reflects poorly on us that we are not likewise angry. We should be angry about many things and we are not.
  - swatow 12y ago
    I wasn't initially attempting to shut the poster down because they weren't a professional. In later posts I did devolve into saying "well you're not there, man". What I was initially criticizing was the false humility that somehow made not being a professional into a kind of virtue, affording the poster a greater insight than actual professionals: As a 'hobbyist' programmer who makes his money outside of the software game, ... the programming tech treadmill is one of the most cringe inducing phenomena I've ever witnessed - particularly in scripting languages... I've since learned to use programming languages to solve problems I care about. If that makes me the forever-novice then I'm cool with that.

noelwelsh 12y ago

> I apologize but enterprise software is for the user. Surely this cannot be disputed. Nope. The reason enterprise software sucks is because it isn't worth making it not suck. And the reason for that is there is a huge disconnect (many layers of management) between the person who buys the software and those that use it. Thus the sucktitude of the software is largely irrelevant for purchasing decisions because the buyer never experiences the pain of using it. This is starting to change as people get more experience with quality consumer software, and such software (e.g. Dropbox) begins to invade the enterprise.

swatow 12y ago

I'm not arguing against your right to complain that software is bad from the user's perspective. But that wasn't your point. You claimed there was something wrong with the software industry, that their failure to produce better software was in some way related to your original post regarding faddishness in the software industry. That's what I'm arguing against. I'm saying that you can't know the reasons why software sucks unless you've worked as a programmer (or have some other equivalent way of knowing, e.g. being a product manager).

eropple 12y ago
I don't really have a problem with anything he's saying. It's not even a secret that we culturally care only dimly, if at all, about the people who are receiving the photons we spew out of their screens, and we are the worse for it (look at how often people kvetch about PMs who want things that are hard but obviously better for the user). We're too busy looking inward and bragging about our build systems to muster any empathy for people outside our clique. Your attempts to shut him down with "well you're not there, man" are offensive to me, and I do have the resume to hurdle your arbitrary no-complaints bar. I don't have to be the employee of an oil company to know that regulatory capture's a thing, he doesn't need to be writing a bunch of leet node.js to know that few people working on anything in tech gives a single solitary crap about him or anybody else using their stuff past the buying point. He's right to be mad about what we, as a culture, foist on our users. It reflects poorly on us that we are not likewise angry. We should be angry about many things and we are not.
- swatow 12y ago
  I wasn't initially attempting to shut the poster down because they weren't a professional. In later posts I did devolve into saying "well you're not there, man". What I was initially criticizing was the false humility that somehow made not being a professional into a kind of virtue, affording the poster a greater insight than actual professionals: As a 'hobbyist' programmer who makes his money outside of the software game, ... the programming tech treadmill is one of the most cringe inducing phenomena I've ever witnessed - particularly in scripting languages... I've since learned to use programming languages to solve problems I care about. If that makes me the forever-novice then I'm cool with that.