3 ms·

Half a dozen is not significantly more than four in the context of "number of languages known." But when you're making an argument "in your experience" and hap

by Retra 12y ago

Half a dozen is not significantly more than four in the context of "number of languages known." But when you're making an argument "in your experience" and happen to list your experiences in such a narrow band, you are not making a good argument. That was my point. I don't know why you think it is being a jerk to tell you to make a better argument. To address your point: almost everything a programmer does is achieved through the manipulation of language. We solve problems using language. Learning a new language is learning a new way to solve problems. If you find this to be easy, then maybe that is because you keep solving the same problems. My experiences stand in stark contrast with yours. So what are you really basing your claim on? How do I, as someone who cares about this subject, resolve the conflict of what you're saying with what I've experienced? Surely measuring our genitals is not the solution you'd propose.

eropple 12y ago
This wasn't about my "argument", because it's really hard to be so unclueful as to think that a mild relation of experiences and shop talk is an argument. This was a chance for you being That Guy. But nobody likes That Guy. So stop. > My experiences stand in stark contrast with yours. So what are you really basing your claim on? How do I, as someone who cares about this subject, resolve the conflict of what you're saying with what I've experienced? By actually choosing to participate in discussion? By sharing your point of view and maybe everyone could learn from it? I might have been interested in your point of view if you had chosen to share it rather than being snide and dismissive. Now because you couldn't resist that I just want you to go away, and I won't reply to you again.
- Retra 12y ago
  "In logic and philosophy, an argument is a series of statements typically used to persuade someone of something or to present reasons for accepting a conclusion." I don't have any more patience for your offended emotional tirade. Get some rest and get over it.
  - dang 12y ago
    > your offended emotional tirade. Get some rest and get over it. Personal attacks are not allowed on Hacker News.
- skj 12y ago
  > But nobody likes That Guy. So stop. I think you are confused about who is being 'that guy'.
nostrademons 12y ago
So which languages do you know, and what are your experiences?
- Retra 12y ago
  I don't know if it would be all that useful to say what languages I know. C, C++, Java, various LISPs, Python, Haskell, Agda, Rust, and a couple different scripting languages. Mostly mainstream stuff with well-developed tools and theory. The differences between languages in the same category are subtle, and I wouldn't call myself in expert in any language in which I didn't know what the subtle differences were and why they matter. I would characterize learning new languages like learning to play a new musical instrument. Yes, if you know one instrument, you probably know how to read music, keep a beat, develop good practice habits, etc., and those things will transfer just fine to the new instrument. But those skills do not actually make you good at the new instrument -- they are just necessary to use it. For instance, I know how to play a trumpet. Trumpet skills are useless on a piano. You don't need any ambidexterity. Your rhythm and pitch are controlled with your breathing. Maybe you'll want to sing instead? Well, breath control is great for singing, but being a good trumpet player doesn't make you a good singer. Controlling your pitch is much more difficult when singing than on a trumpet, to say nothing about how easy it is on a piano. But it only works on a piano if it is in tune. Piano tuning is not a skill a trumpet player or a singer needs to learn. But what about a guitar player? Almost all of the hard work of mastering an instrument lies in the details that are exclusive to that instrument. The fundamentals are necessary, but they don't seem to represent mastery. Someone who's memorized a music theory book is not a good musician, even if they might be advantaged in the act of learning to be one. They might actually be a terrible musician because they never learned how to practice. Not to mention the whole issue of trying to say what competence, mastery, proficiency, et al actually mean.

by Retra 12y ago

eropple 12y ago

This wasn't about my "argument", because it's really hard to be so unclueful as to think that a mild relation of experiences and shop talk is an argument. This was a chance for you being That Guy. But nobody likes That Guy. So stop. > My experiences stand in stark contrast with yours. So what are you really basing your claim on? How do I, as someone who cares about this subject, resolve the conflict of what you're saying with what I've experienced? By actually choosing to participate in discussion? By sharing your point of view and maybe everyone could learn from it? I might have been interested in your point of view if you had chosen to share it rather than being snide and dismissive. Now because you couldn't resist that I just want you to go away, and I won't reply to you again.

Retra 12y ago
"In logic and philosophy, an argument is a series of statements typically used to persuade someone of something or to present reasons for accepting a conclusion." I don't have any more patience for your offended emotional tirade. Get some rest and get over it.
- dang 12y ago
  > your offended emotional tirade. Get some rest and get over it. Personal attacks are not allowed on Hacker News.
skj 12y ago
> But nobody likes That Guy. So stop. I think you are confused about who is being 'that guy'.

nostrademons 12y ago

So which languages do you know, and what are your experiences?

Retra 12y ago
I don't know if it would be all that useful to say what languages I know. C, C++, Java, various LISPs, Python, Haskell, Agda, Rust, and a couple different scripting languages. Mostly mainstream stuff with well-developed tools and theory. The differences between languages in the same category are subtle, and I wouldn't call myself in expert in any language in which I didn't know what the subtle differences were and why they matter. I would characterize learning new languages like learning to play a new musical instrument. Yes, if you know one instrument, you probably know how to read music, keep a beat, develop good practice habits, etc., and those things will transfer just fine to the new instrument. But those skills do not actually make you good at the new instrument -- they are just necessary to use it. For instance, I know how to play a trumpet. Trumpet skills are useless on a piano. You don't need any ambidexterity. Your rhythm and pitch are controlled with your breathing. Maybe you'll want to sing instead? Well, breath control is great for singing, but being a good trumpet player doesn't make you a good singer. Controlling your pitch is much more difficult when singing than on a trumpet, to say nothing about how easy it is on a piano. But it only works on a piano if it is in tune. Piano tuning is not a skill a trumpet player or a singer needs to learn. But what about a guitar player? Almost all of the hard work of mastering an instrument lies in the details that are exclusive to that instrument. The fundamentals are necessary, but they don't seem to represent mastery. Someone who's memorized a music theory book is not a good musician, even if they might be advantaged in the act of learning to be one. They might actually be a terrible musician because they never learned how to practice. Not to mention the whole issue of trying to say what competence, mastery, proficiency, et al actually mean.