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>Japanese manga is fully of sexy, weird, objectifying stuff that most people really wouldn't want their kids to see, but go to a bookstore in Japan and you'll a

>Japanese manga is fully of sexy, weird, objectifying stuff that most people really wouldn't want their kids to see, but go to a bookstore in Japan and you'll also see bookcase after bookcase of manga totally appropriate for all ages with young girls pressing their nose into them. Stories about teenage girls getting picked on at school or trying to meet the right guy or saying stupid things in class. Stories about girls who are in bands and office workers and every possible thing. I, uh, read a lot of manga intended for teenaged Japanese girls. The ironic thing is, a lot of times even the manga intended for girls is mildly sexualized to please members of the peripheral male demographics, yet the original female audience doesn't run away screaming in response. Guys enjoy "girls comics," and vice versa, and growing up around female anime and manga fans, I never really questioned it. Stories about girls trying to choose between a group of handsome suitors, or stories about guys surrounded by improbably attractive women. Cutesy slice-of-life, or ultra-violence. Ones with boobies and panty shots out the wazoo, or ones with homoerotic undertones... we didn't care, we watched it all together. Meanwhile, in our more "enlightened" mainstream American culture, people write angry blog posts filled with stupid impact font image macros about how they literally judged an entire medium by its cover, because the female body is offensive or something.

drzaiusapelord 12y ago
This is such a good post, its shameful the HN political correctness crowd have downvoted it so. I don't think HN is a mature enough forum for this discussion. Its just a reddit-like upvote/downvote gamificiation machine at this point. I find it amusing that American culture dictates that once you become 18 you are now sexualized and free to partake of whatever media you like, but an hour before your birthday you are an asexual being with no interest in things other than what the political correct types dictate. A lot of this stuff is aimed for the 14-18 group where puberty kicks in. Yes, there are boobs and bulging crotches! The characters sometimes have sex! I know, its crazy! It almost reflects the hormonal madness of puberty. The problem is American culture is so damn puritanical that not only have we dismissed this kind of art as victimizing, if not illegal, that we pretend that the status quo of this level of censorship is fine. Puberty will find a way. Kids will date, fuck, get high, etc. Why our art needs to reflect some kind of Judeo-Christian 1950s ideal is beyond me. Heaven forbid kids that age are represented as how they truly are or art they want is aimed at them. Or that, heaven forbid to SJW types, that most people don't have a problem with traditional gender roles. A manga about a girl trying to get a boyfriend shouldn't cause a social catastrophe. Its fine. I think this kind of thing is a legitimate social panic, the same way people were obsessed with Satanism in the 1980s. We're going to look back at these ultra-politically correct attitudes today and wonder why we were so worried about displaying traditional roles, sexuality, and violence in fiction.
- shanusmagnus 12y ago
  I like your post, but I'll just say that nobody I know personally would care about displaying traditional roles, sexuality, and violence. When people get pissed I think what they're mostly pissed about is the ridiculous caricaturization that occurs. For instance, a movie with tons of ass-kicking makes you feel excited. Realistic portrayals of violence usually makes you feel sick and horrible. Similarly with sex and gender roles. Much could be said on the topic, but my feeling is that too much of the caricature-fiction produces similar effects as eating too much candy. It's fine in small quantities, but not something to organize your diet around. In fact, I'd be interested to see who's getting upset about realistic portrayals of anything. Even with the caveats about what would count as a 'realistic portrayal' I think you'd be left with a tiny minority of weirdos and chronic pains-in-the-asses.
- ScottBurson 12y ago
  I think you and ANTSANTS have both missed the point of the article. It's not about puritanism, though there is plenty of that to be found in American culture. It's about objectification.
  - ANTSANTS 12y ago
    Objectification literally means treating a person like a thing. An example of objectification would be a "damsel-in-distress" character with no personality of her own, that exists only as a "reward" for the hero after his struggles. The characters in these comics are not objectified, they are sexualized. They are designed to be sexually attractive, often sporting revealing outfits and exaggerated proportions, but they are still characters with their own personalities, motives, agency, strengths, weaknesses, struggles, and stories. The conflation of the two is absolutely a neo-puritan problem. If you have problems with your elementary school aged kids seeing sexualized images of women, maybe you shouldn't be buying them comic books about Batman beating criminals into pulps either.
    - ScottBurson 12y ago
      > The conflation of the two is absolutely a neo-puritan problem. No, I think you're quite mistaken. Japanese culture is even more male-chauvinist than American culture. Gender roles, while loosening a little in recent years, are still extremely rigid. How long do you think it will be before Japan has a female Prime Minister? 50 years? 100? The presentation of girls and women in fiction is part of the culture, both reflecting it and playing some role -- probably not small -- in perpetuating it. The relentless, unceasing portrayal of sexualized women characters sends the message that the value of women is in their sexuality -- not their intelligence, their emotional perceptiveness, their leadership qualities, or any of hundreds of other positive attributes I could name and that women, like men, possess in varying degrees. That drumbeat -- inescapably present in American culture as well as Japanese -- is heard clearly by both girls and boys, and shapes their attitudes about gender roles. I'm not trying to play cultural superiority here. Most cultures on this planet have a problem in this area, and the US is no shining exemplar. But holding Japan up as having particularly healthy gender psychology is rather naïve.
killertypo 12y ago
> Meanwhile, in our more "enlightened" mainstream American culture, people write angry blog posts filled with stupid impact font image macros about how they literally judged an entire medium by its cover, because the female body is offensive or something. It is absolutely offensive when it is posed in an unreal and unnatural way with impossible proportions and impossible looks. I get that they are comics, but a story about super girl where she has a perfect 36-24-36 with Tripple F boobs that are molded and sculpted and pointed so far north you could almost navigate by them...it...it is a bit ridiculous. Fun to look at, yes, but they don't offer much other than a fantasy.
- ANTSANTS 12y ago
  Batman is improbably built. See how his muscles bulge preposterously from his armor? [1] In real life, most body builders focused on "aesthetics" would have to starve themselves to bring their body fat levels low enough to create that kind of appearance. They would not have the energy afterwards to serve Gotham. A fighter [2] or soldier [3] like Batman would prefer to build up "functional" muscle that will be useful in combat, and maintain much greater body fat levels to provide energy reserves in tough situations. Is Batman "offensive," or is exaggeration a basic element of art? [1] http://cdn.screenrant.com/wp-content/uploads/Batsuit-Reveal-Coming-for-Batman-vs-Superman.jpg http://cdn.screenrant.com/wp-content/uploads/Batsuit-Reveal-... [2] http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2011/1223/mma_2011best_29.jpg http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2011/1223/mma_2011best_29.jpg [3] https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/3c/f4/81/3cf4816e39b83fff749ccc172c4f34d4.jpg https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/3c/f4/81/3cf4816e3... I hate to respond with an image macro, but in summary: https://i.imgur.com/MMdocdc.jpg https://i.imgur.com/MMdocdc.jpg
  - zadroz90 12y ago
    Two things: 1. killertypo is talking about the way /women/ are portrayed in comic books — not men. He may think the way men are portrayed is wrong as well, so bringing up Batman makes no sense. 2. The way men and women are portrayed is vastly different. Male superheroes are written (and drawn) as people you want to be, women superheroes are written (and drawn) as people you want to have sex with. This wouldn't be such a big deal if this wasn't the norm. Check out the Hawkeye Initiative [1], Hawkeye is drawn the way female characters are drawn. Notice that you never see comic book heroes drawn that way unless they're women. [1] http://thehawkeyeinitiative.com/ http://thehawkeyeinitiative.com/
surge 12y ago
The men are sexualized too. Just not in the hyper masculine sense.

drzaiusapelord 12y ago

This is such a good post, its shameful the HN political correctness crowd have downvoted it so. I don't think HN is a mature enough forum for this discussion. Its just a reddit-like upvote/downvote gamificiation machine at this point. I find it amusing that American culture dictates that once you become 18 you are now sexualized and free to partake of whatever media you like, but an hour before your birthday you are an asexual being with no interest in things other than what the political correct types dictate. A lot of this stuff is aimed for the 14-18 group where puberty kicks in. Yes, there are boobs and bulging crotches! The characters sometimes have sex! I know, its crazy! It almost reflects the hormonal madness of puberty. The problem is American culture is so damn puritanical that not only have we dismissed this kind of art as victimizing, if not illegal, that we pretend that the status quo of this level of censorship is fine. Puberty will find a way. Kids will date, fuck, get high, etc. Why our art needs to reflect some kind of Judeo-Christian 1950s ideal is beyond me. Heaven forbid kids that age are represented as how they truly are or art they want is aimed at them. Or that, heaven forbid to SJW types, that most people don't have a problem with traditional gender roles. A manga about a girl trying to get a boyfriend shouldn't cause a social catastrophe. Its fine. I think this kind of thing is a legitimate social panic, the same way people were obsessed with Satanism in the 1980s. We're going to look back at these ultra-politically correct attitudes today and wonder why we were so worried about displaying traditional roles, sexuality, and violence in fiction.

shanusmagnus 12y ago
I like your post, but I'll just say that nobody I know personally would care about displaying traditional roles, sexuality, and violence. When people get pissed I think what they're mostly pissed about is the ridiculous caricaturization that occurs. For instance, a movie with tons of ass-kicking makes you feel excited. Realistic portrayals of violence usually makes you feel sick and horrible. Similarly with sex and gender roles. Much could be said on the topic, but my feeling is that too much of the caricature-fiction produces similar effects as eating too much candy. It's fine in small quantities, but not something to organize your diet around. In fact, I'd be interested to see who's getting upset about realistic portrayals of anything. Even with the caveats about what would count as a 'realistic portrayal' I think you'd be left with a tiny minority of weirdos and chronic pains-in-the-asses.
ScottBurson 12y ago
I think you and ANTSANTS have both missed the point of the article. It's not about puritanism, though there is plenty of that to be found in American culture. It's about objectification.
- ANTSANTS 12y ago
  Objectification literally means treating a person like a thing. An example of objectification would be a "damsel-in-distress" character with no personality of her own, that exists only as a "reward" for the hero after his struggles. The characters in these comics are not objectified, they are sexualized. They are designed to be sexually attractive, often sporting revealing outfits and exaggerated proportions, but they are still characters with their own personalities, motives, agency, strengths, weaknesses, struggles, and stories. The conflation of the two is absolutely a neo-puritan problem. If you have problems with your elementary school aged kids seeing sexualized images of women, maybe you shouldn't be buying them comic books about Batman beating criminals into pulps either.
  - ScottBurson 12y ago
    > The conflation of the two is absolutely a neo-puritan problem. No, I think you're quite mistaken. Japanese culture is even more male-chauvinist than American culture. Gender roles, while loosening a little in recent years, are still extremely rigid. How long do you think it will be before Japan has a female Prime Minister? 50 years? 100? The presentation of girls and women in fiction is part of the culture, both reflecting it and playing some role -- probably not small -- in perpetuating it. The relentless, unceasing portrayal of sexualized women characters sends the message that the value of women is in their sexuality -- not their intelligence, their emotional perceptiveness, their leadership qualities, or any of hundreds of other positive attributes I could name and that women, like men, possess in varying degrees. That drumbeat -- inescapably present in American culture as well as Japanese -- is heard clearly by both girls and boys, and shapes their attitudes about gender roles. I'm not trying to play cultural superiority here. Most cultures on this planet have a problem in this area, and the US is no shining exemplar. But holding Japan up as having particularly healthy gender psychology is rather naïve.

killertypo 12y ago

> Meanwhile, in our more "enlightened" mainstream American culture, people write angry blog posts filled with stupid impact font image macros about how they literally judged an entire medium by its cover, because the female body is offensive or something. It is absolutely offensive when it is posed in an unreal and unnatural way with impossible proportions and impossible looks. I get that they are comics, but a story about super girl where she has a perfect 36-24-36 with Tripple F boobs that are molded and sculpted and pointed so far north you could almost navigate by them...it...it is a bit ridiculous. Fun to look at, yes, but they don't offer much other than a fantasy.

ANTSANTS 12y ago
Batman is improbably built. See how his muscles bulge preposterously from his armor? [1] In real life, most body builders focused on "aesthetics" would have to starve themselves to bring their body fat levels low enough to create that kind of appearance. They would not have the energy afterwards to serve Gotham. A fighter [2] or soldier [3] like Batman would prefer to build up "functional" muscle that will be useful in combat, and maintain much greater body fat levels to provide energy reserves in tough situations. Is Batman "offensive," or is exaggeration a basic element of art? [1] http://cdn.screenrant.com/wp-content/uploads/Batsuit-Reveal-Coming-for-Batman-vs-Superman.jpg http://cdn.screenrant.com/wp-content/uploads/Batsuit-Reveal-... [2] http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2011/1223/mma_2011best_29.jpg http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2011/1223/mma_2011best_29.jpg [3] https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/3c/f4/81/3cf4816e39b83fff749ccc172c4f34d4.jpg https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/3c/f4/81/3cf4816e3... I hate to respond with an image macro, but in summary: https://i.imgur.com/MMdocdc.jpg https://i.imgur.com/MMdocdc.jpg
- zadroz90 12y ago
  Two things: 1. killertypo is talking about the way /women/ are portrayed in comic books — not men. He may think the way men are portrayed is wrong as well, so bringing up Batman makes no sense. 2. The way men and women are portrayed is vastly different. Male superheroes are written (and drawn) as people you want to be, women superheroes are written (and drawn) as people you want to have sex with. This wouldn't be such a big deal if this wasn't the norm. Check out the Hawkeye Initiative [1], Hawkeye is drawn the way female characters are drawn. Notice that you never see comic book heroes drawn that way unless they're women. [1] http://thehawkeyeinitiative.com/ http://thehawkeyeinitiative.com/

surge 12y ago

The men are sexualized too. Just not in the hyper masculine sense.