5 ms·

What you say is like a nice idea, but you have to remember that this is a business. These kinds of comics line the shelves, because they're the ones that sell.

by Heyr 12y ago

What you say is like a nice idea, but you have to remember that this is a business. These kinds of comics line the shelves, because they're the ones that sell. Of course, it could very well be that if we had more comics that were more moderate they would sell also, but nobody's willing to take the risk. On top of that, you also require an author that is interested in that - you can't just suck this stuff out of a pen to make money (although often this does happen, they tend to end up being less interesting though). If the comic is printed out then somebody has to buy it. If the comics aren't bought enough then it just won't work. It doesn't matter whether our ideal society would have us have more moderate comics or not, because it seems that in reality that's not the case. Of course, you can always prove me wrong (and the comic industry) by creating your own comic that does adhere to the criteria you enjoy. You would probably be rather successful if people truly wanted it, because it seems like there is no competition for them. But it seems unlikely.

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
mcphage 12y ago
This is definitely a self-fulfilling prophecy. Many other nations have a wider audience for comics, but in the US we've followed your advice so long that all the audiences that aren't adolescent males have been pushed away. Which leads to where we are: comic book companies chasing after a tiny fraction of their potential audience, because they can't make comics for anyone else, because not enough others are hbothering to look for comics anymore. They'd have to rebuild other audiences from scratch, having burned through them all.
- Spooky23 12y ago
  Your talking about the tail wagging the dog. Comics are how they are because the market imploded and they have to appeal to the niche of of niche that is their customer base. When I was a kid in NYC, I remember going to the newsstand with my dad and they had a few racks of the mass market comics. I'd get spider man and superman, my younger sister would get Donald Duck and similar things. Today there's no newsstand and paper media is imploding, so it's a completely different market. I don't get manga at all, but it's a different phenomenon that doesn't have mass appeal, and girls aren't in the niche.
  - bane 12y ago
    > Donald Duck and similar things. Yeah exactly, it's very hard to find comics like this anymore. I had a friend who used to love Archie comics for example. Good luck finding those anywhere these days.
    - unreal37 12y ago
      They're sold in grocery stores in the checkout line. Pretty much relegated to "impulse purchase to satisfy your misbehaving child".
    - uxp100 12y ago
      Archie remains popular (inexplicably, to me) and Archie anthologies are available in most supermarkets I've been in (in the US) and at least some of the several comic books are found in almost every comic shop. For a casual fan, I think Archie might be the easiest comic to get a hold of. Just FYI.
  - king_jester 12y ago
    > Comics are how they are because the market imploded and they have to appeal to the niche of of niche that is their customer base. It's been a long time since that implosion, that isn't an excuse any longer for why comics continue to alienate new readers and reinforce stereotypes.
  - ANTSANTS 12y ago
    >I don't get manga at all, but it's a different phenomenon ... and girls aren't in the niche. That's hilariously false, both in Japan and abroad.
- Heyr 12y ago
  Except they didn't follow my advice because I or someone else thought it would be cool, it bedmates of the market. People just weren't buying enough comics do they had to target a niche more and more. You say there is some kind of hidden audience that would buy comics if they just stopped portraying female characters the same way they portrayed spiderman? In sure there are some people that feel that way, but I don't there would be enough of those to support the industry, because, again, the internet and other mediums are just wrecking their business. Also, what other countries really have a healthier comic industry than the US of you exclude manga and manhwa? Not to mention that a huge portion of manga actually is the same as US comics. There are just a bunch of others as well. Not to mention that in Japan you have to tie in the merchandise, light novel, and anime industries to manga as well. There are no popular equivalents for some of those in the US.
  - mcphage 12y ago
    > You say there is some kind of hidden audience that would buy comics if they just stopped portraying female characters the same way they portrayed spiderman? In sure there are some people that feel that way, but I don't there would be enough of those to support the industry, because, again, the internet and other mediums are just wrecking their business. You don't need to listen to me—read the responses in this very thread from HN readers in other countries, which have a much more broad comic book readership. It's filled with them! Just from a cursory glance, we have responders from France, Sweden, Belgium, Norway, as well as yes, Japan—and the enormous webcomic industry. The idea that nobody would ever buy comics except for adolescent males is both foolish and false. The evidence against it is tremendous.
    - Heyr 12y ago
      But HN is a tiny minority. It is barely a drop in the ocean. Printed media is losing a lot of market (except books globally and comics in certain asian countries). Look at how manga works - most manga don't get that many sales. They rely entirely on their niche. There are just a lot of authors of them and a lot of buyers. However, in the western world comics seem to be dying like newspapers. The Internet just stomps them, so comics are trying to hold on to the niche they do have as hard as they can. You have to realize that this is afterall a business - the fact that there are very few comics that do portray what you're talking about disagrees with your "tremendous evidence". Also note that I do not care for these types of comics you describe or even the "sexy" ones. I do not like western art in comics at all. I just think that people who say "oh, but I would read comics if only they had X" talk a lot about it, but not enough of them follow through for extended periods of time when offered the chance.
- kendallpark 12y ago
  I agree. Take for example the new Ms. Marvel. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ms._Marvel_%28Kamala_Khan%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ms._Marvel_%28Kamala_Khan%29 She's a Pakistani superhero that dresses modestly AND her comics sell. Why? Because they're well-written. But I guess it's easier to draw more boobs than to invest in quality writing.
  - mcphage 12y ago
    > But I guess it's easier to draw more boobs than to invest in quality writing. Aargh, you're reminding me that I really need to get back into reading that series. When I could buy comics from inside the Comixology app, it was really easy to keep up, and I haven't read any new comics since they pulled that out.
    - hullo 12y ago
      You can still buy from within the Marvel and DC apps. I've never tried it, but it looks like comixology has a tool to sync your comics between accounts.
- LanceH 12y ago
  It is not the males pushing people away from comics. It's exactly the opposite. This is a group engaged in an activity which has long been looked down upon. Reading comics was seen as merely childish. Men embraced it, get called basement dwellers and just go on enjoying the things they enjoy. Then someone sees they are having a good time in spite of decades of being called childish and now suddenly they are sexist for excluding others. These were commonly the guys getting excluded and the comic book store has been their refuge.
  - unreal37 12y ago
    That's an interesting point that shouldn't be lost in the discussion. Men who read comics have long been ridiculed by the mainstream. Even the Big Bang Theory, which inspired the blog authors' trip to the comic store, plays to that stereotype of it being an activity for the socially inept. And now, 20 years later, the industry doesn't serve any other market and is being criticized for it. Interesting.
  - theorique 12y ago
    1985: "Ha, look at those comic book guys. What losers! No girls would ever be interested in them." 2015: "Ha, look at those comic book nerds. What misogynists! No girls would ever be interested in them."
  - Fomite 12y ago
    It is possible to be both excluded and exclusionary at the same time.

by Heyr 12y ago

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

mcphage 12y ago

This is definitely a self-fulfilling prophecy. Many other nations have a wider audience for comics, but in the US we've followed your advice so long that all the audiences that aren't adolescent males have been pushed away. Which leads to where we are: comic book companies chasing after a tiny fraction of their potential audience, because they can't make comics for anyone else, because not enough others are hbothering to look for comics anymore. They'd have to rebuild other audiences from scratch, having burned through them all.

Spooky23 12y ago
Your talking about the tail wagging the dog. Comics are how they are because the market imploded and they have to appeal to the niche of of niche that is their customer base. When I was a kid in NYC, I remember going to the newsstand with my dad and they had a few racks of the mass market comics. I'd get spider man and superman, my younger sister would get Donald Duck and similar things. Today there's no newsstand and paper media is imploding, so it's a completely different market. I don't get manga at all, but it's a different phenomenon that doesn't have mass appeal, and girls aren't in the niche.
- bane 12y ago
  > Donald Duck and similar things. Yeah exactly, it's very hard to find comics like this anymore. I had a friend who used to love Archie comics for example. Good luck finding those anywhere these days.
  - unreal37 12y ago
    They're sold in grocery stores in the checkout line. Pretty much relegated to "impulse purchase to satisfy your misbehaving child".
  - uxp100 12y ago
    Archie remains popular (inexplicably, to me) and Archie anthologies are available in most supermarkets I've been in (in the US) and at least some of the several comic books are found in almost every comic shop. For a casual fan, I think Archie might be the easiest comic to get a hold of. Just FYI.
- king_jester 12y ago
  > Comics are how they are because the market imploded and they have to appeal to the niche of of niche that is their customer base. It's been a long time since that implosion, that isn't an excuse any longer for why comics continue to alienate new readers and reinforce stereotypes.
- ANTSANTS 12y ago
  >I don't get manga at all, but it's a different phenomenon ... and girls aren't in the niche. That's hilariously false, both in Japan and abroad.
Heyr 12y ago
Except they didn't follow my advice because I or someone else thought it would be cool, it bedmates of the market. People just weren't buying enough comics do they had to target a niche more and more. You say there is some kind of hidden audience that would buy comics if they just stopped portraying female characters the same way they portrayed spiderman? In sure there are some people that feel that way, but I don't there would be enough of those to support the industry, because, again, the internet and other mediums are just wrecking their business. Also, what other countries really have a healthier comic industry than the US of you exclude manga and manhwa? Not to mention that a huge portion of manga actually is the same as US comics. There are just a bunch of others as well. Not to mention that in Japan you have to tie in the merchandise, light novel, and anime industries to manga as well. There are no popular equivalents for some of those in the US.
- mcphage 12y ago
  > You say there is some kind of hidden audience that would buy comics if they just stopped portraying female characters the same way they portrayed spiderman? In sure there are some people that feel that way, but I don't there would be enough of those to support the industry, because, again, the internet and other mediums are just wrecking their business. You don't need to listen to me—read the responses in this very thread from HN readers in other countries, which have a much more broad comic book readership. It's filled with them! Just from a cursory glance, we have responders from France, Sweden, Belgium, Norway, as well as yes, Japan—and the enormous webcomic industry. The idea that nobody would ever buy comics except for adolescent males is both foolish and false. The evidence against it is tremendous.
  - Heyr 12y ago
    But HN is a tiny minority. It is barely a drop in the ocean. Printed media is losing a lot of market (except books globally and comics in certain asian countries). Look at how manga works - most manga don't get that many sales. They rely entirely on their niche. There are just a lot of authors of them and a lot of buyers. However, in the western world comics seem to be dying like newspapers. The Internet just stomps them, so comics are trying to hold on to the niche they do have as hard as they can. You have to realize that this is afterall a business - the fact that there are very few comics that do portray what you're talking about disagrees with your "tremendous evidence". Also note that I do not care for these types of comics you describe or even the "sexy" ones. I do not like western art in comics at all. I just think that people who say "oh, but I would read comics if only they had X" talk a lot about it, but not enough of them follow through for extended periods of time when offered the chance.
kendallpark 12y ago
I agree. Take for example the new Ms. Marvel. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ms._Marvel_%28Kamala_Khan%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ms._Marvel_%28Kamala_Khan%29 She's a Pakistani superhero that dresses modestly AND her comics sell. Why? Because they're well-written. But I guess it's easier to draw more boobs than to invest in quality writing.
- mcphage 12y ago
  > But I guess it's easier to draw more boobs than to invest in quality writing. Aargh, you're reminding me that I really need to get back into reading that series. When I could buy comics from inside the Comixology app, it was really easy to keep up, and I haven't read any new comics since they pulled that out.
  - hullo 12y ago
    You can still buy from within the Marvel and DC apps. I've never tried it, but it looks like comixology has a tool to sync your comics between accounts.
LanceH 12y ago
It is not the males pushing people away from comics. It's exactly the opposite. This is a group engaged in an activity which has long been looked down upon. Reading comics was seen as merely childish. Men embraced it, get called basement dwellers and just go on enjoying the things they enjoy. Then someone sees they are having a good time in spite of decades of being called childish and now suddenly they are sexist for excluding others. These were commonly the guys getting excluded and the comic book store has been their refuge.
- unreal37 12y ago
  That's an interesting point that shouldn't be lost in the discussion. Men who read comics have long been ridiculed by the mainstream. Even the Big Bang Theory, which inspired the blog authors' trip to the comic store, plays to that stereotype of it being an activity for the socially inept. And now, 20 years later, the industry doesn't serve any other market and is being criticized for it. Interesting.
- theorique 12y ago
  1985: "Ha, look at those comic book guys. What losers! No girls would ever be interested in them." 2015: "Ha, look at those comic book nerds. What misogynists! No girls would ever be interested in them."
- Fomite 12y ago
  It is possible to be both excluded and exclusionary at the same time.