8 ms·

The Doctor Who Championed Hand-Washing and Briefly Saved Lives

64 points by Hooke 12y ago

pella 12y ago
and check -> The Semmelweis reflex or "Semmelweis effect" "The Semmelweis reflex or "Semmelweis effect" is a metaphor for the reflex-like tendency to reject new evidence or new knowledge because it contradicts established norms, beliefs or paradigms. .. " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semmelweis_reflex http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semmelweis_reflex
- pella 12y ago
  Aaron Swartz himself wrote about this kind of situation: http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/semmelweis http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/semmelweis
lsiebert 12y ago
Not that Dr. Who.
- dghf 12y ago
  Indeed. It took me a couple of tries to parse this headline, thanks to that mistake on my part.
  - srimech 12y ago
    I wouldn't call that a mistake on your part; it's over-use of capitalization in the headline.
    - anonymfus 12y ago
      The problem is that it's still normal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_case#Headings_and_publication_titles http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_case#Headings_and_public... >As regards publication titles it is, however, a common typographic practice among both British and U.S. publishers to capitalise significant words (and in the United States, this is often applied to headings, too). This family of typographic conventions is usually called title case. For example, R. M. Ritter's Oxford Manual of Style (2002) suggests capitalising "the first word and all nouns, pronouns, adjectives, verbs and adverbs, but generally not articles, conjunctions and short prepositions"
      - justincormack 12y ago
        It is normal in the US. In the UK title case has been obsolete for decades. Apparently USA Today and Washington Post already switched[1]. It makes US newspapers look very old fashioned to me, well along with the rest of their retro styling. [1] http://gawker.com/reader-poll-big-letters-in-headlines-or-little-letters-900331797 http://gawker.com/reader-poll-big-letters-in-headlines-or-li...
mherrmann 12y ago
It's funny I live two minutes from this place [1]. It's now no longer a hospital but a campus for the University of Vienna, and houses many nice restaurants. 1: http://media.npr.org/assets/img/2015/01/08/aakh-1784_enl-4530a6c3ec67d4263450f41dced729c8192f889b-s1200.jpg http://media.npr.org/assets/img/2015/01/08/aakh-1784_enl-453...
im2w1l 12y ago
>He publicly berated people who disagreed with him and made some influential enemies. This piqued my curiosity. Managed to dig up this quote attributed to him by "Forgotten Ideas, Neglected Pioneers" >In this massacre you, Herr Professor, have participated. The homicide must cease, and with the object of bringing this homicide to an end, I shall keep watch, and every man who dares to spread dangerious errors regarding puerperal fever will find me an active opponent. For me there is no other means for checking the murder than to unsparingly unmask my opponents. I can kind of see why people didn't like him.
- bainsfather 12y ago
  His statements and arguments were correct - that ought to be all that mattered.
  - semperfaux 12y ago
    Your italics are telling. Messages never, ever exist in a vacuum; if they did, RMS would not alienate people with his usually-correct but often-irrationally-irate rants. Communication is not just about your message, it's about the interpretation of your message. If you don't take that into account, you can be right all day long, but you may fail to be constructive or effective, and you share that failure with the person who -- perhaps reasonably -- fails to take your poorly-conveyed criticism well.
    - bainsfather 12y ago
      You are right, I was saying how things ought to be, not how they often are. In this case, many people were being killed due to the doctors' actions. Despite the very good evidence, the doctors preferred to play politics, and continue to kill/murder their patients rather than lose face. A most extreme example of the triumph of self-interest over reason and honesty.
      - pdabbadabba 12y ago
        I'm of two minds. Sure, it would be great if scientists were able to ignore the personality and tone of the person making an observation or advancing a theory. But it would also be even better if everyone (including people with big, lifesaving ideas) could exercise a little self-restraint and show some respect for the emotions of others, if only because that's the way you get other human beings to listen to you (but also, hopefully, just because it's the right thing to do).
ada1981 12y ago
When I was helping launch Peter Thiel's MetaMed.com, I came across all sorts of stats like this.. It's amazing how many hundreds of thousands of lives might be saved if doctors did simple things like wash their hands.
heeton 12y ago
This is all I saw. http://cl.ly/image/2a0z2Q1T2S2C http://cl.ly/image/2a0z2Q1T2S2C http://images2.fanpop.com/image/photos/10300000/Doctor-Who-The-Classic-Series-classic-doctor-who-10355782-500-375.jpg http://images2.fanpop.com/image/photos/10300000/Doctor-Who-T...
richardwigley 12y ago
His work was ignored, ironically, through a lack of scientific reasoning - by which the critics meant there was no theoretical basis for his evidence. It was taken seriously when Pasteur provided the theory, however, the failure to recognise the idea advanced evidence-based medicine - which is where we are today. So, ignoring him actually advanced science ;-) Contemporary reaction to Ignaz Semmelweis Semmelweis's critics claimed his findings lacked scientific reasoning. The failure of the nineteenth-century scientific community to recognize Semmelweis's findings, and the nature of the flawed critiques outlined below, helped advance a positivist epistemology, leading to the emergence of evidence-based medicine. [1] [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contemporary_reaction_to_Ignaz_Semmelweis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contemporary_reaction_to_Ignaz_...
- jerf 12y ago
  The perversion of science that believes an observation must be accompanied by a theory (preferably acceptable to the current mainstream) is still alive and well, even in medicine, positivist epistemology or no. Once you start looking for it you'll see it at least once a month even in popular press articles. But a perversion it still is. It is eminently scientific to simply document and even publish an inexplicable observation, and only later hope that somebody can incorporate it into a testable theory. To watch a putative scientist discard evidence because it has no theory with it boggles my mind, but even here on HN I've seen articles about papers getting rejected for this reason in the last year, so it's a real problem even today.
  - dpark 12y ago
    A modern-day analogue to this would be the "back is best" campaign for putting infants to sleep on their backs as a way to reduce SIDS. The evidence is overwhelming that putting infants to sleep on their backs (vs stomachs or sides) reduces the rate of SIDS significantly. We have no idea why, but that doesn't really matter. It's hard to understand how a scientist could be arrogant enough to dismiss legitimate evidence simply because the underlying mechanism isn't understood.
    - 12y ago
hn_user2 12y ago
> Even today, convincing health care providers to take hand-washing seriously is a challenge. Really? Such an interesting article, and then this gets dropped in.
- bainsfather 12y ago
  This article gives the general idea: https://news.yahoo.com/clean-hands--vanderbilt-s-hand-washing-initiative-172312795.html https://news.yahoo.com/clean-hands--vanderbilt-s-hand-washin...
  - bainsfather 12y ago
    This article is very good - it covers doctors' hand-washing plus other things. http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2007/12/10/the-checklist?printable=true http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2007/12/10/the-checklist?p... (I read it a few years back and just re-found it now)
- md2be 12y ago
  This is a real issue Today.
leni536 12y ago
There are old Hungarian movies about him[1]. He is described as the "savior of mothers" here in Hungary. [1]I have seen this one, but I'm sure it's impossible to find English subtitles for it: http://hungarian.imdb.com/title/tt0033035/ http://hungarian.imdb.com/title/tt0033035/ There is an other one, I didn't see it and they say that the older was better: http://hungarian.imdb.com/title/tt0045136/?ref_=fn_al_tt_6 http://hungarian.imdb.com/title/tt0045136/?ref_=fn_al_tt_6 Also I found by accident this link: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1440757/ http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1440757/ I don't have IMDBpro so I can't see any relevant info on this one, I hope this will be good.
putzdown 12y ago
Yes but which Doctor Who championed hand-washing and briefly saved lives?
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- atlbeer 12y ago
  Doctor? Doctor Who?
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
tptacek 12y ago
This story was discussed on HN a few years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4438828#up_4439503 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4438828#up_4439503

64 points by Hooke 12y ago

pella 12y ago

and check -> The Semmelweis reflex or "Semmelweis effect" "The Semmelweis reflex or "Semmelweis effect" is a metaphor for the reflex-like tendency to reject new evidence or new knowledge because it contradicts established norms, beliefs or paradigms. .. " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semmelweis_reflex http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semmelweis_reflex

pella 12y ago
Aaron Swartz himself wrote about this kind of situation: http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/semmelweis http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/semmelweis

lsiebert 12y ago

Not that Dr. Who.

dghf 12y ago
Indeed. It took me a couple of tries to parse this headline, thanks to that mistake on my part.
- srimech 12y ago
  I wouldn't call that a mistake on your part; it's over-use of capitalization in the headline.
  - anonymfus 12y ago
    The problem is that it's still normal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_case#Headings_and_publication_titles http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_case#Headings_and_public... >As regards publication titles it is, however, a common typographic practice among both British and U.S. publishers to capitalise significant words (and in the United States, this is often applied to headings, too). This family of typographic conventions is usually called title case. For example, R. M. Ritter's Oxford Manual of Style (2002) suggests capitalising "the first word and all nouns, pronouns, adjectives, verbs and adverbs, but generally not articles, conjunctions and short prepositions"
    - justincormack 12y ago
      It is normal in the US. In the UK title case has been obsolete for decades. Apparently USA Today and Washington Post already switched[1]. It makes US newspapers look very old fashioned to me, well along with the rest of their retro styling. [1] http://gawker.com/reader-poll-big-letters-in-headlines-or-little-letters-900331797 http://gawker.com/reader-poll-big-letters-in-headlines-or-li...

mherrmann 12y ago

It's funny I live two minutes from this place [1]. It's now no longer a hospital but a campus for the University of Vienna, and houses many nice restaurants. 1: http://media.npr.org/assets/img/2015/01/08/aakh-1784_enl-4530a6c3ec67d4263450f41dced729c8192f889b-s1200.jpg http://media.npr.org/assets/img/2015/01/08/aakh-1784_enl-453...

im2w1l 12y ago

>He publicly berated people who disagreed with him and made some influential enemies. This piqued my curiosity. Managed to dig up this quote attributed to him by "Forgotten Ideas, Neglected Pioneers" >In this massacre you, Herr Professor, have participated. The homicide must cease, and with the object of bringing this homicide to an end, I shall keep watch, and every man who dares to spread dangerious errors regarding puerperal fever will find me an active opponent. For me there is no other means for checking the murder than to unsparingly unmask my opponents. I can kind of see why people didn't like him.

bainsfather 12y ago
His statements and arguments were correct - that ought to be all that mattered.
- semperfaux 12y ago
  Your italics are telling. Messages never, ever exist in a vacuum; if they did, RMS would not alienate people with his usually-correct but often-irrationally-irate rants. Communication is not just about your message, it's about the interpretation of your message. If you don't take that into account, you can be right all day long, but you may fail to be constructive or effective, and you share that failure with the person who -- perhaps reasonably -- fails to take your poorly-conveyed criticism well.
  - bainsfather 12y ago
    You are right, I was saying how things ought to be, not how they often are. In this case, many people were being killed due to the doctors' actions. Despite the very good evidence, the doctors preferred to play politics, and continue to kill/murder their patients rather than lose face. A most extreme example of the triumph of self-interest over reason and honesty.
    - pdabbadabba 12y ago
      I'm of two minds. Sure, it would be great if scientists were able to ignore the personality and tone of the person making an observation or advancing a theory. But it would also be even better if everyone (including people with big, lifesaving ideas) could exercise a little self-restraint and show some respect for the emotions of others, if only because that's the way you get other human beings to listen to you (but also, hopefully, just because it's the right thing to do).

ada1981 12y ago

When I was helping launch Peter Thiel's MetaMed.com, I came across all sorts of stats like this.. It's amazing how many hundreds of thousands of lives might be saved if doctors did simple things like wash their hands.

heeton 12y ago

This is all I saw. http://cl.ly/image/2a0z2Q1T2S2C http://cl.ly/image/2a0z2Q1T2S2C http://images2.fanpop.com/image/photos/10300000/Doctor-Who-The-Classic-Series-classic-doctor-who-10355782-500-375.jpg http://images2.fanpop.com/image/photos/10300000/Doctor-Who-T...

richardwigley 12y ago

His work was ignored, ironically, through a lack of scientific reasoning - by which the critics meant there was no theoretical basis for his evidence. It was taken seriously when Pasteur provided the theory, however, the failure to recognise the idea advanced evidence-based medicine - which is where we are today. So, ignoring him actually advanced science ;-) Contemporary reaction to Ignaz Semmelweis Semmelweis's critics claimed his findings lacked scientific reasoning. The failure of the nineteenth-century scientific community to recognize Semmelweis's findings, and the nature of the flawed critiques outlined below, helped advance a positivist epistemology, leading to the emergence of evidence-based medicine. [1] [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contemporary_reaction_to_Ignaz_Semmelweis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contemporary_reaction_to_Ignaz_...

jerf 12y ago
The perversion of science that believes an observation must be accompanied by a theory (preferably acceptable to the current mainstream) is still alive and well, even in medicine, positivist epistemology or no. Once you start looking for it you'll see it at least once a month even in popular press articles. But a perversion it still is. It is eminently scientific to simply document and even publish an inexplicable observation, and only later hope that somebody can incorporate it into a testable theory. To watch a putative scientist discard evidence because it has no theory with it boggles my mind, but even here on HN I've seen articles about papers getting rejected for this reason in the last year, so it's a real problem even today.
- dpark 12y ago
  A modern-day analogue to this would be the "back is best" campaign for putting infants to sleep on their backs as a way to reduce SIDS. The evidence is overwhelming that putting infants to sleep on their backs (vs stomachs or sides) reduces the rate of SIDS significantly. We have no idea why, but that doesn't really matter. It's hard to understand how a scientist could be arrogant enough to dismiss legitimate evidence simply because the underlying mechanism isn't understood.
  - 12y ago

hn_user2 12y ago

> Even today, convincing health care providers to take hand-washing seriously is a challenge. Really? Such an interesting article, and then this gets dropped in.

bainsfather 12y ago
This article gives the general idea: https://news.yahoo.com/clean-hands--vanderbilt-s-hand-washing-initiative-172312795.html https://news.yahoo.com/clean-hands--vanderbilt-s-hand-washin...
- bainsfather 12y ago
  This article is very good - it covers doctors' hand-washing plus other things. http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2007/12/10/the-checklist?printable=true http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2007/12/10/the-checklist?p... (I read it a few years back and just re-found it now)
md2be 12y ago
This is a real issue Today.

leni536 12y ago

There are old Hungarian movies about him[1]. He is described as the "savior of mothers" here in Hungary. [1]I have seen this one, but I'm sure it's impossible to find English subtitles for it: http://hungarian.imdb.com/title/tt0033035/ http://hungarian.imdb.com/title/tt0033035/ There is an other one, I didn't see it and they say that the older was better: http://hungarian.imdb.com/title/tt0045136/?ref_=fn_al_tt_6 http://hungarian.imdb.com/title/tt0045136/?ref_=fn_al_tt_6 Also I found by accident this link: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1440757/ http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1440757/ I don't have IMDBpro so I can't see any relevant info on this one, I hope this will be good.

putzdown 12y ago

Yes but which Doctor Who championed hand-washing and briefly saved lives?

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
atlbeer 12y ago
Doctor? Doctor Who?
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]

tptacek 12y ago

This story was discussed on HN a few years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4438828#up_4439503 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4438828#up_4439503