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Harvard Admission Exam (1869) [pdf]
- cryptoz 12y agoThe link isn't loading for me, so here's HN's discussion on a Harvard entrance exam from 1869: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3312240 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3312240
- apetresc 12y agoIt's probably the same one; the one linked here is stamped "1899" because that's the year it was entered into the Harvard library, but the date "July, 1869" is clearly visible on the bottom of every single page. The original poster wasn't paying attention.
- dang 12y agoThanks. We added that to the title.
- davesque 12y agoYeah, I thought I remembered seeing this before.
- adrianbordinc 12y agoCached version: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Bu8vLoKlMKQJ:https://www.peterkrantz.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/harvard-admission-1899.pdf+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=dk http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Bu8vLoK... EDIT: more readable version on the web-archive: http://web.archive.org/web/20121119004827/http://www.peterkrantz.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/harvard-admission-1899.pdf http://web.archive.org/web/20121119004827/http://www.peterkr...
- ebauch 12y agoreposted on openrev.org - let's see if we can answer all the questions http://www.openrev.org/paper/harvard-university-entrance-exam-1870 http://www.openrev.org/paper/harvard-university-entrance-exa...
- razster 12y agoLooks like I'm community college material after all. Honestly though, we never touched Latin during my high school days, such a shame.
- danielweber 12y agoMath question 7, what are the sub-units of pounds? Is it something like pence?
- deleted 12y ago[deleted]
- maccard 12y agoShillings. there were 20 in a pound, and 12 pence in a shilling, for 240 pence/pound. the d signifies pennies.
- gwern 12y agoJust another example of things we have mercifully forgotten. See Isaac Asimov's "Forget It" essay http://www.kkbooks.net/ScienceFiction/Asimov37/27283.html http://www.kkbooks.net/ScienceFiction/Asimov37/27283.html (on a similarly antiquated math textbook).
- ashark 12y agoI think it's interesting that one of his major examples of useless, forgettable knowledge is essentially arithmetic with bases other than 10, which is back in style for grades as early as elementary school and often advanced on this very site as an important skill for children to learn (for some reason—I don't really get why).
- ghaff 12y agoFor one thing, there's simply the utility of other bases in programming although I imagine this utility is less widespread than when a greater percentage of programmers were working at lower levels. More broadly, I gather we're having another iteration of attempting to teach mathematical principles rather than rote calculation. Or, to put it cynically in the words of Tom Lehrer speaking about New Math: "The important thing is to understand what you're doing, not to get the right answer." Personally, I'm somewhat torn and it definitely depends on the individual.
- nashashmi 12y agoI learned Latin in high school, and I learned from an old moving picture and from some old CEO who was one of the few who went to college in his time where he picked to major in Latin and math, that Latin had a far more mainstream role in academia, such that it could propel one to a CEO position of a really big company and that it could be used as one of the basis of a college entrance exam. Latin gave me the ability to form a third brain and be able to dissect the English language and multiple other languages quite mathematically and systematically. I think it might be the key to unlocking the comprehension part of artificial intelligence. I also think that because Latin has become so distant now from mainstream academia has in an essence made our language too simple and rough, lacking poetry and love, and even intelligence. The dialogues from old movies seem alien to us. If we were to reintroduce Latin, I think society's language skills would improve and thereby communication would improve.
- jgoewert 12y agoAuxilium! Non possum surgere et decidi. - Last words of Beowulf :)
- escherplex 12y agoProbably something more like 'Ekhjelpe! Ek hefi ratað eða get ek ei standa'.
- umruehren 12y agoLatin gave you a third brain and it will be the key to artificial intelligence?
- TeMPOraL 12y ago> Latin (...) will be the key to artificial intelligence? Deus ex machina. We knew that for hundreds of years. ;).
- bentcorner 12y agoI took an intro Latin course in university, and while I didn't get as much out of it as you did, it did give me a great appreciation for understanding the roots of words, and why they mean what they mean.
- JasonFruit 12y agoWhat I see here is this: In 1869, as for centuries before, we valued learning that expresses and enables a grasp of over 2000 years of Western culture. In 2015, we barely value the culture of two hundred years ago. I'm innately conservative, I think, and that serious a change in our values worries me.
- monocasa 12y agoCould a piece of this simply be that in the 1860's the US hadn't really surpassed the grandeur Greek and Roman empires at their peak, but now we have?
- JasonFruit 12y agoI'm not sure "grandeur" is a word I'd use to describe the United States. Glitter, perhaps, and certainly bustle, but I don't see much grandeur in our lives. I think it's both interesting and relevant that the word "pompous" could once describe a positive trait; frequently, Handel's music was praised for its pompous solemnity.
- monocasa 12y agoYou could argue the same for the Greek and Roman empires at their height too.
- JasonFruit 12y agoThat depends on what you consider their height: the height of their power, or the height of their culture — which I would argue happened at different times.
- monocasa 12y agoNot really, I'd say that in either case my original point still stands.
- ajkjk 12y ago
- heyadayo 12y agoFaster/working download of what I think is the same document. http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/education/harvardexam.pdf http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/education/harvarde...
- mathattack 12y agoRemember what the purpose of the exam was... They weren't testing your knowledge, they were testing your social class. At the time Harvard was a school for the white upper crust private school elite of the Northeast. This test ensured that they could fill their classes with just those people. It isn't a perfect meritocracy today, but they've come a long way in being more inclusive.
- rab_oof 12y agoIt's childish to downvote something unwritten that needs saying as important as historical discrimination. Even though the context of society at large was also extremely discriminatory, yet the loss of and failure of not capitalizing on bright minds and talent for any attribute was and is a disgrace. It's unpleasant to say or think about, but it's necessary to be broadly and deeply educated in reality. Also, one could argue SAT, ACT and similar standard tests often reinforces subtle biases along the lines of IQ tests. Otherwise, the test itself is curious and reasonable for an entrance examination. (Personal note: My parents refused to take me to interview to private primary schools that required pictures (We couldn't be more WASP) because they were firmly against supporting the inculcated exclusivity of attributes ahead of merit.)
- mathattack 12y agoSATs, ACTs, alumni preference and other current admissions policies reinforce biases too, but any admissions standard will. (If it helps to get one into college, wealthy parents will find a way to optimize their kids around it) It's a matter of degree, and in the past, top schools were much worse.
- rab_oof 12y agoThe test goes into classics and is succinct, whereas today the hazing rituals are pedantic. People forget the importance of the unwritten history of academia's cultural separation until modern times: how exclusive and unreachable universities once were, and that one's primary qualifications were less academic (hence photographs and interviews) and would be viewed today as enormously discriminatory (and today, illegal). It's important to recount this unpleasant fact to not fall into those traps or adopt new or subtle shades of them if unostensible diversity is a primary virtue.
- cge 12y agoWhile the point behind posting these entrance exams is often to make a commentary on a decline in education standards, I'd suggest that it really shows nothing of the sort. The exam is, in fact, rather easy and simplistic, and only seems difficult because of different priorities. The grasp of Latin and Greek required for the language portions is minimal. This is particularly the case because, for the translation portions, all vocabulary is provided, including words that should be instinctively known by anyone with any grasp of the languages (esse in the first question!? καἰ?). Any foreign language test today would be significantly more difficult. The mathematics section looks intimidating only because it involves dealing with difficult numbers by hand. There are specific techniques that would have been taught to work through such problems efficiently, but teaching them now isn't particularly useful. Conversely, the more conceptual and abstract questions are very simple: asking what a prime number is? Asking why exponents are added under multiplication? The history and geography section, meanwhile, is mainly concerned with regurgitation of facts covering very narrow sections of the subject. Perhaps the question asking for the difference between Athens and Sparta could allow some deeper discussion, but most do not. Overall, the test is focused on questions about specific topics requiring memorization rather than questions testing deeper insight and understanding. It's not something that should be looked back on as some product of a better age.
- simon_ 12y agoWhat you're saying is only true if you assume the existence of a modern test-prep mentality. Do the applicants know in advance which facts they will be asked to regurgitate, or do they need to understand a wide variety of material at this level of detail? Also, I really do not agree that the math sections are easy. Students applying for non-quantitative majors are definitely not required to be able to produce non-trivial geometric proofs like this.
- kbart 12y agoNearly all of these math problems were covered in my math curriculum between 7 and 11th grades and are really not hard if you have practiced it before. Actually, the only part of this exam I find difficult is geography, because it requires to have memorized many minor facts (something I find nearly useless in the days of Internet). I guess it depends on your country and education system.
- shin_lao 12y agoIt is interesting to see that much has happened in Mathematics since 1869. All questions are extremely easy. No real functional analysis. Trivial algebra. Some fairly easy calculus. The Latin/Greek section is also very easy as everything is provided. When I was a teenager my Latin exams were much more demanding. The historical section is interesting as it focuses a lot on antic times. It is difficult to judge the difficulty of the question without knowing what was expected. If anything, this test shows that today standards are much much higher than 1869 standards and I'm not surprised.
- mathattack 12y agoHistorical trends have shown that abstract and critical reasoning (what could be termed IQ) has improved over time. [0] Also, remember the context. This exam was for a very small portion of the wealthiest and highest educated elite. That small subset could learn the historical antiquity if they wanted. (And perhaps they still do at Boston Latin) What's amazing is how far the exam's math has been surpassed by broad subsets of today's society. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flynn_effect http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flynn_effect