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Show HN: Nickelodeon joins the effort to teach kids to code

34 points by ABNWZ 12y ago

mmastrac 12y ago
That's cool. Looks like it's using Flambe as well. [0] Myself and a friend worked for Nick a few years back helping build out some of the HTML5 game concepts. We prototyped different games using various engines (PlayN, etc) and ended up along with some other contractors on Haxe-based Flambe as the best choice for HTML5. We actually launched a couple of games [1][2], though a lot of our work ended up internal-only. When we started, the iPad 1 was still considered a current browser. The performance on that device was abysmal. When the iPad 2 and newer versions of iOS came around, we finally had access to accelerated <canvas> and could really start making things work. The other things we prototyped for Nick were in-game video and multiplayer gaming. The in-game video was pretty bad for cross-browser support. In the end, Flambe gave us a tool (Flump) that had the ability to import from Flash animations that was significantly better than trying to force iPads and Android devices to play video reliably and consistently. Multiplayer support was the least painful new ground we worked on -- using engine.io and Redis on the backend we were able to scale to tens of thousands of simultaneous users without spending too much on EC2. For the most part it "just worked". If there's one lesson I learned from this experience, it's that developing games for existing properties is tough work. There are so many stakeholders that things take forever to get done. Considering the value of the properties, this isn't surprising. The second lesson would be that HTML5 is moving so fast that you'll probably have to rebuild your games every few months to support all of the changes that are happening in the space. Most of the games we launched a little more than a year ago are already starting to bitrot. [0] https://github.com/aduros/flambe https://github.com/aduros/flambe [1] http://www.nick.com/games/spongebob-squarepants-spongebob-squared-multiplayer.html http://www.nick.com/games/spongebob-squarepants-spongebob-sq... [2] http://www.nick.com/games/data/korra/korra-pai-sho/ http://www.nick.com/games/data/korra/korra-pai-sho/ [3] http://www.nick.com/games/kca-2013-multiplayer-trivia.html http://www.nick.com/games/kca-2013-multiplayer-trivia.html (no longer there -- probably our most polished release)
fnefnmewfn 12y ago
I really don't understand why it's so critically important we teach our children how to write the next generation of photosharing apps for cats, to the point that we're urging them to do it in all forms of mass media and culture. I can understand trying to get children interested in STEM fields in general, but why does our society direly need mass quantities of programmers in particular? Executives like to talk of "shortages" when they have to pay their workers more than they like, but in reality this meme, and it is a meme, makes no sense whatsoever.
- bglazer 12y ago
  Basic programming literacy would help people in a number of different fields be more productive. I, for one, am getting sick of writing SQL for the marketing folks at my company.
- yoha 12y ago
  The underlying principle behind teaching (except for higher eduction) is not to make productive workers but knowledgeable and discerning citizens. The number of programmers we need is not relevant here: they may not need to know how to write complex programs, but knowing the basic principles of programming will make them more able in a worlds relying heavily on computers. This is already the reason why we teach basic math, physics, biology, history, geography, English, etc. to kids.
  - vezzy-fnord 12y ago
    The "basic principles" of programming are meaningless unless you define concrete paradigms - concatenative, array, functional, object-oriented and so on. I suppose you could talk about data types, data structures, operators, variables and so on, but I do not see how this knowledge will make one "more able" in a digital world. It can certainly impart a false feeling of knowing, however. Actually, writing some ALGOL (or even languages detached from the von Neumann and imperative spheres) to see what it's like will ultimately teach you almost nothing, due to real world computation and software development being remarkably complex and multifaceted, involving tons of abstractions that require plenty of study to grasp. I'd wager teaching people to use a free Unix-like would be much more useful than simply "coding" - which is too broad to have a strict methodology that can be used to teach it. And then expecting the public education system to do it properly is laughable.
brickmort 12y ago
That color scheme hurts my life.
robmcm 12y ago
Shouldn't there be more of a narrative to this? What is the goal? I could see kids clicking on stuff for a few minutes, lose interest and close it.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- Zikes 12y ago
  That's already the goal of children's television programming. Shows like Reading Rainbow, Sesame Street, and Mister Rogers' Neighborhood are prime examples. If a narrative were introduced to this program as robmcm suggests it could even accomplish both goals, just as those television programs can teach both basic literacy and ethical values.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
    - Zikes 12y ago
      The existence of hypothetical counter examples to ethical life lessons does not invalidate those lessons. Ethics aren't the means to an end, they are the practice of respecting people and treating them with dignity. Insofar as teaching ethics is even barely relevant to a discussion about teaching programming to children, the value of women beyond their physical attributes is even less so and suggests you're trying to shoehorn an agenda into the discussion. The examples I gave are entirely relevant, regardless of whether new episodes are being produced or even re-run. They exemplify the purpose, and clearly and undeniably represent the goal of teaching kindness (and more) to children, regardless of the existence or even abundance of examples to the contrary. There may be a lot of noise in that market, but that doesn't mean there aren't people out there already putting a great deal of effort into doing the right thing.
      - deleted 12y ago
        [deleted]
        Zikes 12y ago
pkfrank 12y ago
Geraldine Laybourne, who built/ran Nickelodeon for 15+ years, recently joined BetaWorks' board [1]. She also started Kandu, which is an iPad app that helps students learn to make games [2]. Not sure if there's a direction connection to the Nick.co.uk efforts, but definitely interesting. [1] http://techcrunch.com/2014/02/05/media-queen-gerry-laybourne-joins-betaworks-board/ http://techcrunch.com/2014/02/05/media-queen-gerry-laybourne... [2] http://techcrunch.com/2014/03/18/kandu-is-an-ipad-app-that-teaches-kids-how-to-make-ipad-apps-no-coding-required/ http://techcrunch.com/2014/03/18/kandu-is-an-ipad-app-that-t...

34 points by ABNWZ 12y ago

That's cool. Looks like it's using Flambe as well. [0] Myself and a friend worked for Nick a few years back helping build out some of the HTML5 game concepts. We prototyped different games using various engines (PlayN, etc) and ended up along with some other contractors on Haxe-based Flambe as the best choice for HTML5. We actually launched a couple of games [1][2], though a lot of our work ended up internal-only. When we started, the iPad 1 was still considered a current browser. The performance on that device was abysmal. When the iPad 2 and newer versions of iOS came around, we finally had access to accelerated <canvas> and could really start making things work. The other things we prototyped for Nick were in-game video and multiplayer gaming. The in-game video was pretty bad for cross-browser support. In the end, Flambe gave us a tool (Flump) that had the ability to import from Flash animations that was significantly better than trying to force iPads and Android devices to play video reliably and consistently. Multiplayer support was the least painful new ground we worked on -- using engine.io and Redis on the backend we were able to scale to tens of thousands of simultaneous users without spending too much on EC2. For the most part it "just worked". If there's one lesson I learned from this experience, it's that developing games for existing properties is tough work. There are so many stakeholders that things take forever to get done. Considering the value of the properties, this isn't surprising. The second lesson would be that HTML5 is moving so fast that you'll probably have to rebuild your games every few months to support all of the changes that are happening in the space. Most of the games we launched a little more than a year ago are already starting to bitrot. [0] https://github.com/aduros/flambe https://github.com/aduros/flambe [1] http://www.nick.com/games/spongebob-squarepants-spongebob-squared-multiplayer.html http://www.nick.com/games/spongebob-squarepants-spongebob-sq... [2] http://www.nick.com/games/data/korra/korra-pai-sho/ http://www.nick.com/games/data/korra/korra-pai-sho/ [3] http://www.nick.com/games/kca-2013-multiplayer-trivia.html http://www.nick.com/games/kca-2013-multiplayer-trivia.html (no longer there -- probably our most polished release)

fnefnmewfn 12y ago

I really don't understand why it's so critically important we teach our children how to write the next generation of photosharing apps for cats, to the point that we're urging them to do it in all forms of mass media and culture. I can understand trying to get children interested in STEM fields in general, but why does our society direly need mass quantities of programmers in particular? Executives like to talk of "shortages" when they have to pay their workers more than they like, but in reality this meme, and it is a meme, makes no sense whatsoever.

bglazer 12y ago
Basic programming literacy would help people in a number of different fields be more productive. I, for one, am getting sick of writing SQL for the marketing folks at my company.
yoha 12y ago
The underlying principle behind teaching (except for higher eduction) is not to make productive workers but knowledgeable and discerning citizens. The number of programmers we need is not relevant here: they may not need to know how to write complex programs, but knowing the basic principles of programming will make them more able in a worlds relying heavily on computers. This is already the reason why we teach basic math, physics, biology, history, geography, English, etc. to kids.
- vezzy-fnord 12y ago
  The "basic principles" of programming are meaningless unless you define concrete paradigms - concatenative, array, functional, object-oriented and so on. I suppose you could talk about data types, data structures, operators, variables and so on, but I do not see how this knowledge will make one "more able" in a digital world. It can certainly impart a false feeling of knowing, however. Actually, writing some ALGOL (or even languages detached from the von Neumann and imperative spheres) to see what it's like will ultimately teach you almost nothing, due to real world computation and software development being remarkably complex and multifaceted, involving tons of abstractions that require plenty of study to grasp. I'd wager teaching people to use a free Unix-like would be much more useful than simply "coding" - which is too broad to have a strict methodology that can be used to teach it. And then expecting the public education system to do it properly is laughable.

brickmort 12y ago

That color scheme hurts my life.

robmcm 12y ago

Shouldn't there be more of a narrative to this? What is the goal? I could see kids clicking on stuff for a few minutes, lose interest and close it.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
Zikes 12y ago
That's already the goal of children's television programming. Shows like Reading Rainbow, Sesame Street, and Mister Rogers' Neighborhood are prime examples. If a narrative were introduced to this program as robmcm suggests it could even accomplish both goals, just as those television programs can teach both basic literacy and ethical values.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
  - Zikes 12y ago
    The existence of hypothetical counter examples to ethical life lessons does not invalidate those lessons. Ethics aren't the means to an end, they are the practice of respecting people and treating them with dignity. Insofar as teaching ethics is even barely relevant to a discussion about teaching programming to children, the value of women beyond their physical attributes is even less so and suggests you're trying to shoehorn an agenda into the discussion. The examples I gave are entirely relevant, regardless of whether new episodes are being produced or even re-run. They exemplify the purpose, and clearly and undeniably represent the goal of teaching kindness (and more) to children, regardless of the existence or even abundance of examples to the contrary. There may be a lot of noise in that market, but that doesn't mean there aren't people out there already putting a great deal of effort into doing the right thing.
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
      - Zikes 12y ago

pkfrank 12y ago

Geraldine Laybourne, who built/ran Nickelodeon for 15+ years, recently joined BetaWorks' board [1]. She also started Kandu, which is an iPad app that helps students learn to make games [2]. Not sure if there's a direction connection to the Nick.co.uk efforts, but definitely interesting. [1] http://techcrunch.com/2014/02/05/media-queen-gerry-laybourne-joins-betaworks-board/ http://techcrunch.com/2014/02/05/media-queen-gerry-laybourne... [2] http://techcrunch.com/2014/03/18/kandu-is-an-ipad-app-that-teaches-kids-how-to-make-ipad-apps-no-coding-required/ http://techcrunch.com/2014/03/18/kandu-is-an-ipad-app-that-t...