6 ms·

I'm from Italy as well. As everyone else, I am dissatisfied with how Italy is run, but it's _disgusting_ to see how many Italians living abroad claim the right

by mystixx 12y ago

I'm from Italy as well. As everyone else, I am dissatisfied with how Italy is run, but it's _disgusting_ to see how many Italians living abroad claim the right to hurl mud at Italy. I think the real challenge is to stay here, not to run away abroad. As a proof, here we ended up talking of mafia and corruption, following common stereotypes and therefore giving a distorted idea of Italy. I think most of the people that are saying "run away" are implicitly trying to justify themselves for their decision to go away from their country and family. Sadly, more than in culture, food and wine, Italians are the first for the most destructive self-criticism in the world. I have rarely heard a non-Italian speaking so low of his own country, as only Italians can do.

Antomanno 12y ago
Yes italy is the best place to live worlwide but the dire reality of its socio-economic situation to not talk of the ridiculous Startup Visa program is a fact, especially if compared with others similar program worlwide http://en.wescribe.co/t/the-italian-startup-program-startup-visa http://en.wescribe.co/t/the-italian-startup-program-startup-...
mashermack 12y ago
Speak to someone from Greece then, they are proud of lots of things as we do but honestly, from my point of view staying in Italy isn't what I define "living". Also I don't see those who stays there as people willing to overcome a real challenge, but like someone with no guts to move away from his/her place.
- mystixx 12y ago
  Maybe you want to ignore it, but Italy is so much heterogeneous that living here is not always being home: I'm not home. I'm in Italy but I moved away from my place years ago. It's funny how the same thing can be seen in such different ways. I have been planning since long to go away from Italy and I will eventually go away, but I feel like it's an act of cowardice. You said just the opposite...
edelweiss22 12y ago
I second this. "I think the real challenge is to stay here, not to run away abroad". It hurts me hearing those expats talking shit about our country. I can't imagine how they change perception of Italy to everyone they get in touch with. To those of you, stop bashing and start being the first change you want to see.
- mashermack 12y ago
  Explain me how do you pretend to change something when your clients are paying 50% of what the clients in other countries are willing to pay (if they pay, 'cause lots really like to delay payments indefinitely), while your suppliers are constantly banging your door to pay (rightly) them, and while your government 5 days a week is trying everything possible to shut your business down? Be serious, go abroad for 3 months. Start a limited company, be a self-employed person and you'll finally understand the obnoxious bureaucratic process one needs to undergo and what kind of unimaginable amount of things one needs pay to keep his/her business running in Italy.
  - mystixx 12y ago
    You won't find anyone who disagrees with you on this. This is not the point, however. Everyone in Italy is disappointed. But if you're going abroad, there are good chances that you're one of those who can make the difference. And if those who can make the difference go abroad, how do you pretend to change things here? Let me only say that this: if Italy is a sinking boat, people who leave the country, they don't have guts, they're all so many Schiettino.
    - olgeni 12y ago
      "Guts" for what? Did you notice that we stopped even having elections? Sorry, but I don't see why people should sacrifice themselves and their families just to keep this up.
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
    - 12y ago
scardine 12y ago
I'm 3rd generation of Italians that emigrated to Brazil. Regions with lots of Italian immigrants like Buenos Aires in Argentina or Sao Paulo in Brazil can resonate with every feeling in this thread.
- Kurtz79 12y ago
  Do not take it personally, but I cannot think of any major problem attributable to Italy to be any better in Brazil or Argentina.
  - scardine 12y ago
    So you disagree that Italian immigration politically influenced these places? Not that every Portugal and Spain former colonies are doing great, but in Latin America (with exception of Venezuela) they probably will do better than Brazil and Argentina in the near future.
fauigerzigerk 12y ago
Providing facts is the best way of debunking sterotypes though. In your statement, I see only patriotism, which isn't very convincing. Maybe you could start by explaining why Italy comes 56th (between Turkey and Belarus) in the ease of doing business rankings: http://www.doingbusiness.org/rankings http://www.doingbusiness.org/rankings I know all rankings can be criticised, but this one confirms everything I have read about things like rule of law and red tape in Italy.
- thinkindie 12y ago
  the very same ranking ranks Italy better than Luxembourg where almost all the American large companies have their European HQ. It also ranks Malaysia better than Switzerland. Oh, please.
  - fauigerzigerk 12y ago
    As I said, all rankings are flawed, but if you drill down into the individual factors you'll find out some of the reasons for any surprising results. Luxemburg is part of a giant tax evasion scheme. That's the only reason why some multi-nationals are doing business there. They don't need "ease of doing business" like a startup does. I really don't know nearly enough about Malaysia to compare it to Switzerland. Apparently you do.
gkya 12y ago
> I have rarely heard a non-Italian speaking so low of his own country, as only Italians can do. I'm Turkish studying Italian language and literature at uni, and I can assure you that Turks and Italians are competing a trophy in this race of self-bashing. So much so that I sometimes regret having got into studying italian culture.
DeusExMachina 12y ago
> I think the real challenge is to stay here, not to run away abroad. Exactly. And that's why everybody is advising not to start a business there. Do you want extra challenges when you are doing something that is not easy already? Probably you think there is something "heroic" in it, but that's not the case for everybody. I am an iOS developer. I left a country where I had a job I didn't like (not in iOS, but on Microsoft platforms) for a ridiculous salary, where working for yourself is a suicide. And I was one of the lucky ones. The moment I moved I got triple the salary for a job I liked and later was able to start my own business. Accounting and tax declaration here in NL is really easy, and fiscal pressure is much better. Frankly, since my life got immediately so much better outside of Italy I don't need to implicitly justify my decisions. I have plenty of explicit reason I can list. You might find it disgusting that Italians throw mud at their own country, I find it sad to see people defending it only because it's their own country, and as such is exempted from criticism. Maybe you are the one trying to implicitly justify your decision to remain.
- Fire-Dragon-DoL 12y ago
  50% taxes for people earning less than 15000€/year ? Yes is a challenge... to survive. I tried, I said "I'll stay here, I'll pay taxes, make money and resurrect this country", so they added +10% taxes, reduced the "low income reduction" from people earning 30 000/year (gross) to 15000/year (gross), increased the "retirement fund" costs from 24% to 29% (and will increase up to 33.7% in 3 years they said) so I ended up, in one year, from paying ~30% taxes (plus accountant, required in Italy), to ~45%, increasing to 49% in 3 years. And NO ONE said here the worst part. I can't believe no one mentioned. The first year you work (not employed), you have to pay taxes for the first year and THE YEAR AFTER, yes, you have understood it: 90% taxes first year, plus accountant. Good bye, my beloved country. There are a lot of smart people, but I have no idea how to survive there.
  - DeusExMachina 12y ago
    Indeed, I forgot that the first year you pay for the second year in advance, but is indeed true.
gruturo 12y ago
I'll be fully honest with you: I considered staying. I considered doing exactly what you say: staying, working against the current, trying to change things. And then I decided not to. Why? Because I fully believe that Italy is doomed beyond any attempt to fix it. You should cut away pretty much 90% of the people holding any position of power in any public office. Trouble is, you can't do it by force. You must do it legally. Legally means asking them - they occupy the very same public office positions who would rule on this. Would they agree to it? And with whom would you replace them? The "new" guys, the fresh blood, very quickly adjust to the state of things - otherwise their career prospects (and in some extreme cases life expectancy) are cut sharply. I really, really believe it can't be saved and therefore made a rational decision to leave and never look back. It's a battle that can't be won, I decided not to fight it.

by mystixx 12y ago

Antomanno 12y ago

Yes italy is the best place to live worlwide but the dire reality of its socio-economic situation to not talk of the ridiculous Startup Visa program is a fact, especially if compared with others similar program worlwide http://en.wescribe.co/t/the-italian-startup-program-startup-visa http://en.wescribe.co/t/the-italian-startup-program-startup-...

mashermack 12y ago

Speak to someone from Greece then, they are proud of lots of things as we do but honestly, from my point of view staying in Italy isn't what I define "living". Also I don't see those who stays there as people willing to overcome a real challenge, but like someone with no guts to move away from his/her place.

mystixx 12y ago
Maybe you want to ignore it, but Italy is so much heterogeneous that living here is not always being home: I'm not home. I'm in Italy but I moved away from my place years ago. It's funny how the same thing can be seen in such different ways. I have been planning since long to go away from Italy and I will eventually go away, but I feel like it's an act of cowardice. You said just the opposite...

edelweiss22 12y ago

I second this. "I think the real challenge is to stay here, not to run away abroad". It hurts me hearing those expats talking shit about our country. I can't imagine how they change perception of Italy to everyone they get in touch with. To those of you, stop bashing and start being the first change you want to see.

mashermack 12y ago
Explain me how do you pretend to change something when your clients are paying 50% of what the clients in other countries are willing to pay (if they pay, 'cause lots really like to delay payments indefinitely), while your suppliers are constantly banging your door to pay (rightly) them, and while your government 5 days a week is trying everything possible to shut your business down? Be serious, go abroad for 3 months. Start a limited company, be a self-employed person and you'll finally understand the obnoxious bureaucratic process one needs to undergo and what kind of unimaginable amount of things one needs pay to keep his/her business running in Italy.
- mystixx 12y ago
  You won't find anyone who disagrees with you on this. This is not the point, however. Everyone in Italy is disappointed. But if you're going abroad, there are good chances that you're one of those who can make the difference. And if those who can make the difference go abroad, how do you pretend to change things here? Let me only say that this: if Italy is a sinking boat, people who leave the country, they don't have guts, they're all so many Schiettino.
  - olgeni 12y ago
    "Guts" for what? Did you notice that we stopped even having elections? Sorry, but I don't see why people should sacrifice themselves and their families just to keep this up.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - 12y ago

scardine 12y ago

I'm 3rd generation of Italians that emigrated to Brazil. Regions with lots of Italian immigrants like Buenos Aires in Argentina or Sao Paulo in Brazil can resonate with every feeling in this thread.

Kurtz79 12y ago
Do not take it personally, but I cannot think of any major problem attributable to Italy to be any better in Brazil or Argentina.
- scardine 12y ago
  So you disagree that Italian immigration politically influenced these places? Not that every Portugal and Spain former colonies are doing great, but in Latin America (with exception of Venezuela) they probably will do better than Brazil and Argentina in the near future.

fauigerzigerk 12y ago

Providing facts is the best way of debunking sterotypes though. In your statement, I see only patriotism, which isn't very convincing. Maybe you could start by explaining why Italy comes 56th (between Turkey and Belarus) in the ease of doing business rankings: http://www.doingbusiness.org/rankings http://www.doingbusiness.org/rankings I know all rankings can be criticised, but this one confirms everything I have read about things like rule of law and red tape in Italy.

thinkindie 12y ago
the very same ranking ranks Italy better than Luxembourg where almost all the American large companies have their European HQ. It also ranks Malaysia better than Switzerland. Oh, please.
- fauigerzigerk 12y ago
  As I said, all rankings are flawed, but if you drill down into the individual factors you'll find out some of the reasons for any surprising results. Luxemburg is part of a giant tax evasion scheme. That's the only reason why some multi-nationals are doing business there. They don't need "ease of doing business" like a startup does. I really don't know nearly enough about Malaysia to compare it to Switzerland. Apparently you do.

gkya 12y ago

> I have rarely heard a non-Italian speaking so low of his own country, as only Italians can do. I'm Turkish studying Italian language and literature at uni, and I can assure you that Turks and Italians are competing a trophy in this race of self-bashing. So much so that I sometimes regret having got into studying italian culture.

DeusExMachina 12y ago

> I think the real challenge is to stay here, not to run away abroad. Exactly. And that's why everybody is advising not to start a business there. Do you want extra challenges when you are doing something that is not easy already? Probably you think there is something "heroic" in it, but that's not the case for everybody. I am an iOS developer. I left a country where I had a job I didn't like (not in iOS, but on Microsoft platforms) for a ridiculous salary, where working for yourself is a suicide. And I was one of the lucky ones. The moment I moved I got triple the salary for a job I liked and later was able to start my own business. Accounting and tax declaration here in NL is really easy, and fiscal pressure is much better. Frankly, since my life got immediately so much better outside of Italy I don't need to implicitly justify my decisions. I have plenty of explicit reason I can list. You might find it disgusting that Italians throw mud at their own country, I find it sad to see people defending it only because it's their own country, and as such is exempted from criticism. Maybe you are the one trying to implicitly justify your decision to remain.

Fire-Dragon-DoL 12y ago
50% taxes for people earning less than 15000€/year ? Yes is a challenge... to survive. I tried, I said "I'll stay here, I'll pay taxes, make money and resurrect this country", so they added +10% taxes, reduced the "low income reduction" from people earning 30 000/year (gross) to 15000/year (gross), increased the "retirement fund" costs from 24% to 29% (and will increase up to 33.7% in 3 years they said) so I ended up, in one year, from paying ~30% taxes (plus accountant, required in Italy), to ~45%, increasing to 49% in 3 years. And NO ONE said here the worst part. I can't believe no one mentioned. The first year you work (not employed), you have to pay taxes for the first year and THE YEAR AFTER, yes, you have understood it: 90% taxes first year, plus accountant. Good bye, my beloved country. There are a lot of smart people, but I have no idea how to survive there.
- DeusExMachina 12y ago
  Indeed, I forgot that the first year you pay for the second year in advance, but is indeed true.

gruturo 12y ago

I'll be fully honest with you: I considered staying. I considered doing exactly what you say: staying, working against the current, trying to change things. And then I decided not to. Why? Because I fully believe that Italy is doomed beyond any attempt to fix it. You should cut away pretty much 90% of the people holding any position of power in any public office. Trouble is, you can't do it by force. You must do it legally. Legally means asking them - they occupy the very same public office positions who would rule on this. Would they agree to it? And with whom would you replace them? The "new" guys, the fresh blood, very quickly adjust to the state of things - otherwise their career prospects (and in some extreme cases life expectancy) are cut sharply. I really, really believe it can't be saved and therefore made a rational decision to leave and never look back. It's a battle that can't be won, I decided not to fight it.