9 ms·

One piece of advice from an Italian, who was born and grew up there: It's a suicide, absolutely do NOT do this. We have the best weather, culture, food, wine, b

by gruturo 12y ago

One piece of advice from an Italian, who was born and grew up there: It's a suicide, absolutely do NOT do this. We have the best weather, culture, food, wine, beaches, etc, you name it. But opening a business in that dysfunctional country? RUN and don't look back. Between fiscal pressure, crazy laws and compliances, the effective presumption of guilt, completely broken or unavailable infrastructure in the hand of monopolists, it's outright suicide. Companies will favor "friends" and deny you a chance even if you're competitive. Oh and we haven't touched the criminal issues at all. I was lucky not have the pleasure of such acquaintances but don't worry, if you become large enough or successful enough, they will come to you.

pibi 12y ago
What about the Dolce Vita? Have you some serious FACT to show? Something you can COMPARE to French, Spain , Ireland or Germany?
Antomanno 12y ago
The problem is structural, is economical, is intellectual instead of "mafia" as i wrote in my post http://en.wescribe.co/t/the-italian-startup-program-startup-visa http://en.wescribe.co/t/the-italian-startup-program-startup-...
mino 12y ago
Regarding this statement: "if you become large enough or successful enough, they will come to you" I wonder how you can back it up with data (see also my comments below regarding stereotypes).
- tigroferoce 12y ago
  Being Italian as well, and having worked both in this industry and academia for a few years I can confirm: believe each of those words. We have no data, but enough experience to assert this. However if you need data,just search how bad Italy is ranked for corruption and think how difficult will it be to work in a country where bribe and not competition is the main driver when it comes to choose partners.
  - walterbell 12y ago
    Are there good history books on the origin of this business culture?
    - davidw 12y ago
      This one's old, and I haven't read it, but it might be worth a look: http://www.amazon.com/Moral-Backward-Society-Edward-Banfield/dp/0029015103/?tag=dedasys-20 http://www.amazon.com/Moral-Backward-Society-Edward-Banfield... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Moral_Basis_of_a_Backward_Society http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Moral_Basis_of_a_Backward_S... Of course, that's a small village in "the dark heart" of southern Italy 60 years ago, which is very, very different from a larger city in the north these days, so take it with a grain of salt: it's not going to be representative of "Italy".
    - tigroferoce 12y ago
      I don't know, sorry. I just live the situation
    - pjc50 12y ago
      It's something of a default. Rule of law is hardly a natural state; it's a boulder at the top of a hill which requires effort to get and keep it there. The real question is "how did impartial business cultures develop and how can they be transitioned to?" The books of Hernando de Soto have some good background on doing this in Peru. A key element of it is recognising which rules are unenforceable and repealing them, so instead of a thicket of unobeyable, intermittently enforced law you get a small robust core of law that's actually enforced fairly.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
DaniFong 12y ago
"the best weather, culture, food, wine, beaches, etc, you name it." Hmm. Why not go there, write some code for the broader world, start the business somewhere else?
- eps 12y ago
  Because you need a residence permit to stay for more than 90 days for each 6 months, and you won't generally be able to rent without it. No school for kids either, etc. And that's if you come from the first world country that has a no-visa arrangement with EU. Otherwise you will need an entry visa as well.
  - EvaK_de 12y ago
    Is this an older regulation or is it the result of Italy being the target of more and more immigrants in recent years? [edit: typo]
- svzdvd 12y ago
  It's simple: because if you live here, you have to pay taxes here. A lot of taxes. And the Italian equivalent of IRS can just come to you and say that you don't pay enough, you're presumed guilty and you'll have to accept to pay a fine or try to prove you're innocent in court (which could take years).
  - EvaK_de 12y ago
    Is this an older regulation or is it the result of Italy being more and more pressured by the EU to fix their household in recent years?
    - svzdvd 12y ago
      No, this isn't a result of the last crisis. The government is trying to reduce the amount of black economy but it's doing it in the wrong way. There are statistics that the government uses to calculate what you should earn every year, if you declare less than that amount, you're presumed guilty and you'll have to justify that...
harrygold 12y ago
My Italian ex-roomates/friends (Italian 30-something entrepreneurs living here in L.A.) echo many these sentiments you write. No matter how much they love their country and families they are living (and creating) here and in New York for many of the reasons you mention above.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- vidarh 12y ago
  As an expat myself, you would expect expats on average to be substantially more inclined to be critical of their home countries than others: After all we left. Not all of us left because we were unhappy, but almost all of us left because we for one reason or other saw more opportunity elsewhere (e.g. in my case I left because getting larger financing for my startup at the time was easier in the UK). We're on average likely to be horrible misrepresentative of our countries as a whole.
dsirijus 12y ago
Had to affirm this beyond an upvote - don't even think of going there.
danmaz74 12y ago
> I was lucky not have the pleasure of such acquaintances but don't worry, if you become large enough or successful enough, they will come to you. I'm Italian too, live in Italy, and I'm really sick of this ill-informed self-disparaging attitude from so many Italians. There are millions of Italians who will say "I haven't personally never been touched by this, I don't even know anybody who was personally touched by it, but I know this, because... well, just because, everybody knows it". Are there corruption and crime in Italy? Yes, of course. But, except for some areas in the South, they are nowhere as prevalent as so many people seem to think.
- IndianAstronaut 12y ago
  Italy is ranked as more corrupt than Brazil, South Africa and Bulgaria. It has very serious problems with crime and corruption. http://www.transparency.org/cpi2014/results#myAnchor1 http://www.transparency.org/cpi2014/results#myAnchor1
  - raverbashing 12y ago
    Don't believe in any ranking blindly, also The Corruption Perceptions Index ranks countries and territories based on how corrupt their public sector is perceived to be It's a PERCEPTIONS rank. "Very serious problems with crime" compared to what?
    - danmaz74 12y ago
      This is exactly the problem.
  - SeanLuke 12y ago
    Yeah, that's perception, not actuality. Italy's got a lot of problems. But it's not Brazil, not by a long shot. Italy's problem is bureaucracy and outright laziness far more than corruption or crime. And the fact that you can't fire anyone.
- aliem 12y ago
  I can assure you, corruption is the least of our problems in our country. As stated by gruturo the real problems are taxes, inadequate laws, infrastructure (for example cable connection is scarce even in the bigger cities) and finally economic issues. I was born in Italy and I love my country, but I had to move to a different country to be able to work and being payed for my work.
EliRivers 12y ago
I'd like to take exception with your assertion of the best food, if I may :) I spent six months working in and around Naples (which, I know, is perhaps not entirely representative of the country, but is the third largest city in Italy) and the food was basically pizza or pasta. Often, not even particularly good pizza or pasta; I suppose when you don't have to compete with a variety of interesting foods from around the world, you can lower your standards. Locals approved - approved! - of their local councils refusing to allow foreign restaurants. We gave up on getting a decent curry locally and we flew in someone from the UK to cook a curry for us because we just couldn't find anywhere. The attitude to food that wasn't Italian was disconcerting and depressing.
- Morgawr 12y ago
  You really need to take the time to learn and appreciate the food culture in Italy, oddly we have a very diverse and broad/spread culture all over the country. I personally don't enjoy Neapolitan cuisine that much but even that it's to say very little, you can literally travel a few km away from a city and find completely different food and cuisine. If you get bored of eating stuff in Naples, that's because you are only eating the same stuff every day. Try to discover more food and more cuisine even just in the neighboring town, because I can guarantee it's going to be very different. Maybe I'm a bit biased because I'm from Bologna in Emilia-Romagna and I would say that's among the best cuisines in the world. We brought you prosciutto, tagliatelle, ragu', tortellini, lasagna, balsamic vinegar, etc etc. :) And even here there are a lot of differences in food from town to town.
  - EliRivers 12y ago
    Half of what you gave as an example there is pasta, or something that goes on pasta.
    - Morgawr 12y ago
      Calling tortellini or lasagne "pasta" is like calling balsamic vinegar "vinegar". The fact that you still lump pasta all together after living in Italy for some time tells me you did not have the time to experience all the variety and quirks of different types of pasta. Again, I'm very biased but there's more than just "pasta" in a pasta-based cuisine, surprising as it sounds.
drtse4 12y ago
I'm italian myself and not a fan of how a boatload of things works in Italy, but the reference to the criminality just sounds like something straight out of the Sopranos, which it's quite far from reality in every productive region of the country. The issues related to fiscal pressure and the perceived lack of rule of law are instead quite real (see every independent ranking about corruption or ease of doing business). A startup visa program without a serious effort to fix these obvious issues (something that should be done beforehand) is useless. I've read the summary of the new policies, not enough numbers and details, i hope to find the full document somewhere. Also, intriguing the fact that you need to show that you have at least 50k in pre-existing founding to partecipate to the program, it make sense to add some filtering criteria but i'm not sure how many new startups will qualify.
Lucadg 12y ago
As an Italian running a business focused on Italy I can only agree: RUN. I basically begged to be able to run my online company in Italy. No way. I had to emigrate to Germany instead and I've paid taxes there for more than 10 years. Hell, I even paid for the reconstruction of Eastern Germany. Just go to some Selection Day in any Italian incubator and you'll witness how fiscal and regulatory issues are discussed more often than the business model itself. Or try to discuss a start-up idea with an italian and count the seconds before he tells you "how about taxes? how about the regulation?". It's a broken platform.
- edelweiss22 12y ago
  Don't you have taxes or regulations in Germany?
  - Lucadg 12y ago
    I'll reply with a metaphor: - taxes or regulations in Germany are like OS x - taxes or regulations in Italy are machine code written by monkeys in the 50s based on 2000 years old Roman code and the last monkey who knew how to read it died 10 years ago. Now there's more monkeys writing on top of it not even pretending to make it work retroactively. If you find a bug you must guess what to do and hope for the best. You can ask for a monkey machine code expert to decipher it for you but not even he knows how to do. He's just better at guessing. If you make a mistakes due to the bugs they send the Gorillas. [edit: formatting]
  - Htsthbjig 12y ago
    In Germany you go to a bar and say "look, I have not paid the takes that I must, and got away with it." and the next day you will have a police officer in your door. In Italy you say the same thing and you are a hero, someone to admire and imitate. It actually makes a lot of sense too when you see where taxes go in both countries.
napolux 12y ago
As italian, I second this. Stay away from Italy if you want to do business.
DeusExMachina 12y ago
I'm Italian too, and I came to this thread to make the same comment. Stay away. Running your business in our country, given the taxation laws and other stupid draconian regulations, it would just be crazy. In 2014 the rate of failing companies was 2 per hour. And we are not talking about just startups here, which have a high burn rate. Many companies that have managed to survive for years have been killed by changes in the regulations during the last years.
- edelweiss22 12y ago
  Which changes?
  - DeusExMachina 12y ago
    For example, in recent years a stupid regulation called "sector studies" have been introduced. Basically, they look at the average you should be earning in a specific field. If you report less than that amount in a tax declaration, you are assumed to be evading taxes. Practically you are assumed guilty until proven innocent, which is not as easy to do as you think. This is without adding other systemic diseases. Having a tax check is not a desirable outcome in Italy. One anecdote from a friend: he got a tax inspection in his company (in the construction sector). After two days of checks, nothing was found. But instead of being left alone, the inspectors told him this: "we haven't found anything, but since we have been checking for two days, we have to find something". In the end they agreed on faking some irregularities on the heating system and a 500€ fine. Yes, this is just one episode, but not really an uncommon one, unfortunately. I left my country 5 years ago and never looked back. There are so many better places in Europe, I strongly advice not to start a company in Italy.
    - Lucadg 12y ago
      > "we haven't found anything, but since we have been checking for two days, we have to find something" as crazy as it may sound, this is true and happens all the time. I've got countless similar stories from friends who went through it.
    - 12y ago
hackerboos 12y ago
Is the mafia still a problem in mainland Italy? Serious question...
- duiker101 12y ago
  Unfortunately it is...
- napolux 12y ago
  A little subtle than in the 90s, but for sure it's still present.
- IlPeach 12y ago
  yup, it's widespread and has become part of the culture in many places, regardless in any part of Italy, in the south to certain extremes.
- massimosgrelli 12y ago
  They got smarter and now they are in the government structures. Not everybody of course, but recent facts emerged in gov corruption that mafia and criminal organization in general were directly managing billions of euros in public infrastructure building. Those billions were paid by Italian taxpayers.
duiker101 12y ago
I'm another Italian and I second this comment. I already run away and things in the UK are much much better. There might not be the same sun or or food. But at least things are more fair and the rules of the game are pretty clear, not just made up on the stop when it's convenient like it would happen in Italy. Italy has currently a huge problem of smart, young people leaving the country because of this situation. Before trying to attract foreign they should be able to keep their own people.
olgeni 12y ago
On a more positive note, the State will probably kill the company way before it's noticed by criminals.
mobiplayer 12y ago
You just described Spain.
- bbenko 12y ago
  And Croatia.
napolux 12y ago
@gruturo la finiamo con sta storia del buon cibo, del tempo, ecc???
Htsthbjig 12y ago
IMHO Italy is two different countries in one. Similar to Spain. In both countries the south has nothing to do with the north. In both countries the south if sunny, happiness and optimism. But also non serious in all areas of life, including business, and friendship influence and favors economy, also called corruption. I have a German friend that was so happy when he sold so many products to south Italian customers. I asked if he was sure they were going to pay...sure enough he was lucky to get paid at all(after a way longer time than compromised and after lots of problems). Italy is a beautiful place to live, but not for work. You could get the same access to industry, business friendliness and employment that you get in North of Italy in Switzerland or Austria, but without the tax of having to continuously subsidize the south.
- arximboldi 12y ago
  Well, I can't talk about about Italy because I have never been there. But I am from the south of Spain and my family is from the north of Spain and what you just said is both stupid and xenophobic.
edpichler 12y ago
It seems you are talking about Brazil.
mystixx 12y ago
I'm from Italy as well. As everyone else, I am dissatisfied with how Italy is run, but it's _disgusting_ to see how many Italians living abroad claim the right to hurl mud at Italy. I think the real challenge is to stay here, not to run away abroad. As a proof, here we ended up talking of mafia and corruption, following common stereotypes and therefore giving a distorted idea of Italy. I think most of the people that are saying "run away" are implicitly trying to justify themselves for their decision to go away from their country and family. Sadly, more than in culture, food and wine, Italians are the first for the most destructive self-criticism in the world. I have rarely heard a non-Italian speaking so low of his own country, as only Italians can do.
- Antomanno 12y ago
  Yes italy is the best place to live worlwide but the dire reality of its socio-economic situation to not talk of the ridiculous Startup Visa program is a fact, especially if compared with others similar program worlwide http://en.wescribe.co/t/the-italian-startup-program-startup-visa http://en.wescribe.co/t/the-italian-startup-program-startup-...
- mashermack 12y ago
  Speak to someone from Greece then, they are proud of lots of things as we do but honestly, from my point of view staying in Italy isn't what I define "living". Also I don't see those who stays there as people willing to overcome a real challenge, but like someone with no guts to move away from his/her place.
  - mystixx 12y ago
    Maybe you want to ignore it, but Italy is so much heterogeneous that living here is not always being home: I'm not home. I'm in Italy but I moved away from my place years ago. It's funny how the same thing can be seen in such different ways. I have been planning since long to go away from Italy and I will eventually go away, but I feel like it's an act of cowardice. You said just the opposite...
- edelweiss22 12y ago
flexie 12y ago
A piece of advice from a non-Italian who never lived in Italy: Don't listen too much to people who left their first world country and tries to convince themselves it was the right thing to do. At the moment quite few Italians leave Italy: Only around 80,0000 yearly (~0.1% of the population). For comparison, Denmark, with 1/11 the population of Italy and usually ranked one of the best places in the world to do business, experiences emigration of 45,000 per year (~1% of the population). The immigration into Italy dwarfs the migration away from Italy.
tiatia 12y ago
"We have the best weather, culture, food, wine, beaches, etc, you name it." You don't have the best army. Do you know the thinnest book in the world? Italian heroes...

by gruturo 12y ago

pibi 12y ago

What about the Dolce Vita? Have you some serious FACT to show? Something you can COMPARE to French, Spain , Ireland or Germany?

Antomanno 12y ago

The problem is structural, is economical, is intellectual instead of "mafia" as i wrote in my post http://en.wescribe.co/t/the-italian-startup-program-startup-visa http://en.wescribe.co/t/the-italian-startup-program-startup-...

mino 12y ago

Regarding this statement: "if you become large enough or successful enough, they will come to you" I wonder how you can back it up with data (see also my comments below regarding stereotypes).

tigroferoce 12y ago
Being Italian as well, and having worked both in this industry and academia for a few years I can confirm: believe each of those words. We have no data, but enough experience to assert this. However if you need data,just search how bad Italy is ranked for corruption and think how difficult will it be to work in a country where bribe and not competition is the main driver when it comes to choose partners.
- walterbell 12y ago
  Are there good history books on the origin of this business culture?
  - davidw 12y ago
    This one's old, and I haven't read it, but it might be worth a look: http://www.amazon.com/Moral-Backward-Society-Edward-Banfield/dp/0029015103/?tag=dedasys-20 http://www.amazon.com/Moral-Backward-Society-Edward-Banfield... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Moral_Basis_of_a_Backward_Society http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Moral_Basis_of_a_Backward_S... Of course, that's a small village in "the dark heart" of southern Italy 60 years ago, which is very, very different from a larger city in the north these days, so take it with a grain of salt: it's not going to be representative of "Italy".
  - tigroferoce 12y ago
    I don't know, sorry. I just live the situation
  - pjc50 12y ago
    It's something of a default. Rule of law is hardly a natural state; it's a boulder at the top of a hill which requires effort to get and keep it there. The real question is "how did impartial business cultures develop and how can they be transitioned to?" The books of Hernando de Soto have some good background on doing this in Peru. A key element of it is recognising which rules are unenforceable and repealing them, so instead of a thicket of unobeyable, intermittently enforced law you get a small robust core of law that's actually enforced fairly.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]

DaniFong 12y ago

"the best weather, culture, food, wine, beaches, etc, you name it." Hmm. Why not go there, write some code for the broader world, start the business somewhere else?

eps 12y ago
Because you need a residence permit to stay for more than 90 days for each 6 months, and you won't generally be able to rent without it. No school for kids either, etc. And that's if you come from the first world country that has a no-visa arrangement with EU. Otherwise you will need an entry visa as well.
- EvaK_de 12y ago
  Is this an older regulation or is it the result of Italy being the target of more and more immigrants in recent years? [edit: typo]
svzdvd 12y ago
It's simple: because if you live here, you have to pay taxes here. A lot of taxes. And the Italian equivalent of IRS can just come to you and say that you don't pay enough, you're presumed guilty and you'll have to accept to pay a fine or try to prove you're innocent in court (which could take years).
- EvaK_de 12y ago
  Is this an older regulation or is it the result of Italy being more and more pressured by the EU to fix their household in recent years?
  - svzdvd 12y ago
    No, this isn't a result of the last crisis. The government is trying to reduce the amount of black economy but it's doing it in the wrong way. There are statistics that the government uses to calculate what you should earn every year, if you declare less than that amount, you're presumed guilty and you'll have to justify that...

harrygold 12y ago

My Italian ex-roomates/friends (Italian 30-something entrepreneurs living here in L.A.) echo many these sentiments you write. No matter how much they love their country and families they are living (and creating) here and in New York for many of the reasons you mention above.

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
vidarh 12y ago
As an expat myself, you would expect expats on average to be substantially more inclined to be critical of their home countries than others: After all we left. Not all of us left because we were unhappy, but almost all of us left because we for one reason or other saw more opportunity elsewhere (e.g. in my case I left because getting larger financing for my startup at the time was easier in the UK). We're on average likely to be horrible misrepresentative of our countries as a whole.

dsirijus 12y ago

Had to affirm this beyond an upvote - don't even think of going there.

danmaz74 12y ago

> I was lucky not have the pleasure of such acquaintances but don't worry, if you become large enough or successful enough, they will come to you. I'm Italian too, live in Italy, and I'm really sick of this ill-informed self-disparaging attitude from so many Italians. There are millions of Italians who will say "I haven't personally never been touched by this, I don't even know anybody who was personally touched by it, but I know this, because... well, just because, everybody knows it". Are there corruption and crime in Italy? Yes, of course. But, except for some areas in the South, they are nowhere as prevalent as so many people seem to think.

IndianAstronaut 12y ago
Italy is ranked as more corrupt than Brazil, South Africa and Bulgaria. It has very serious problems with crime and corruption. http://www.transparency.org/cpi2014/results#myAnchor1 http://www.transparency.org/cpi2014/results#myAnchor1
- raverbashing 12y ago
  Don't believe in any ranking blindly, also The Corruption Perceptions Index ranks countries and territories based on how corrupt their public sector is perceived to be It's a PERCEPTIONS rank. "Very serious problems with crime" compared to what?
  - danmaz74 12y ago
    This is exactly the problem.
- SeanLuke 12y ago
  Yeah, that's perception, not actuality. Italy's got a lot of problems. But it's not Brazil, not by a long shot. Italy's problem is bureaucracy and outright laziness far more than corruption or crime. And the fact that you can't fire anyone.
aliem 12y ago
I can assure you, corruption is the least of our problems in our country. As stated by gruturo the real problems are taxes, inadequate laws, infrastructure (for example cable connection is scarce even in the bigger cities) and finally economic issues. I was born in Italy and I love my country, but I had to move to a different country to be able to work and being payed for my work.

EliRivers 12y ago

I'd like to take exception with your assertion of the best food, if I may :) I spent six months working in and around Naples (which, I know, is perhaps not entirely representative of the country, but is the third largest city in Italy) and the food was basically pizza or pasta. Often, not even particularly good pizza or pasta; I suppose when you don't have to compete with a variety of interesting foods from around the world, you can lower your standards. Locals approved - approved! - of their local councils refusing to allow foreign restaurants. We gave up on getting a decent curry locally and we flew in someone from the UK to cook a curry for us because we just couldn't find anywhere. The attitude to food that wasn't Italian was disconcerting and depressing.

Morgawr 12y ago
You really need to take the time to learn and appreciate the food culture in Italy, oddly we have a very diverse and broad/spread culture all over the country. I personally don't enjoy Neapolitan cuisine that much but even that it's to say very little, you can literally travel a few km away from a city and find completely different food and cuisine. If you get bored of eating stuff in Naples, that's because you are only eating the same stuff every day. Try to discover more food and more cuisine even just in the neighboring town, because I can guarantee it's going to be very different. Maybe I'm a bit biased because I'm from Bologna in Emilia-Romagna and I would say that's among the best cuisines in the world. We brought you prosciutto, tagliatelle, ragu', tortellini, lasagna, balsamic vinegar, etc etc. :) And even here there are a lot of differences in food from town to town.
- EliRivers 12y ago
  Half of what you gave as an example there is pasta, or something that goes on pasta.
  - Morgawr 12y ago
    Calling tortellini or lasagne "pasta" is like calling balsamic vinegar "vinegar". The fact that you still lump pasta all together after living in Italy for some time tells me you did not have the time to experience all the variety and quirks of different types of pasta. Again, I'm very biased but there's more than just "pasta" in a pasta-based cuisine, surprising as it sounds.

drtse4 12y ago

I'm italian myself and not a fan of how a boatload of things works in Italy, but the reference to the criminality just sounds like something straight out of the Sopranos, which it's quite far from reality in every productive region of the country. The issues related to fiscal pressure and the perceived lack of rule of law are instead quite real (see every independent ranking about corruption or ease of doing business). A startup visa program without a serious effort to fix these obvious issues (something that should be done beforehand) is useless. I've read the summary of the new policies, not enough numbers and details, i hope to find the full document somewhere. Also, intriguing the fact that you need to show that you have at least 50k in pre-existing founding to partecipate to the program, it make sense to add some filtering criteria but i'm not sure how many new startups will qualify.

Lucadg 12y ago

As an Italian running a business focused on Italy I can only agree: RUN. I basically begged to be able to run my online company in Italy. No way. I had to emigrate to Germany instead and I've paid taxes there for more than 10 years. Hell, I even paid for the reconstruction of Eastern Germany. Just go to some Selection Day in any Italian incubator and you'll witness how fiscal and regulatory issues are discussed more often than the business model itself. Or try to discuss a start-up idea with an italian and count the seconds before he tells you "how about taxes? how about the regulation?". It's a broken platform.

edelweiss22 12y ago
Don't you have taxes or regulations in Germany?
- Lucadg 12y ago
  I'll reply with a metaphor: - taxes or regulations in Germany are like OS x - taxes or regulations in Italy are machine code written by monkeys in the 50s based on 2000 years old Roman code and the last monkey who knew how to read it died 10 years ago. Now there's more monkeys writing on top of it not even pretending to make it work retroactively. If you find a bug you must guess what to do and hope for the best. You can ask for a monkey machine code expert to decipher it for you but not even he knows how to do. He's just better at guessing. If you make a mistakes due to the bugs they send the Gorillas. [edit: formatting]
- Htsthbjig 12y ago
  In Germany you go to a bar and say "look, I have not paid the takes that I must, and got away with it." and the next day you will have a police officer in your door. In Italy you say the same thing and you are a hero, someone to admire and imitate. It actually makes a lot of sense too when you see where taxes go in both countries.

napolux 12y ago

As italian, I second this. Stay away from Italy if you want to do business.

DeusExMachina 12y ago

I'm Italian too, and I came to this thread to make the same comment. Stay away. Running your business in our country, given the taxation laws and other stupid draconian regulations, it would just be crazy. In 2014 the rate of failing companies was 2 per hour. And we are not talking about just startups here, which have a high burn rate. Many companies that have managed to survive for years have been killed by changes in the regulations during the last years.

edelweiss22 12y ago
Which changes?
- DeusExMachina 12y ago
  For example, in recent years a stupid regulation called "sector studies" have been introduced. Basically, they look at the average you should be earning in a specific field. If you report less than that amount in a tax declaration, you are assumed to be evading taxes. Practically you are assumed guilty until proven innocent, which is not as easy to do as you think. This is without adding other systemic diseases. Having a tax check is not a desirable outcome in Italy. One anecdote from a friend: he got a tax inspection in his company (in the construction sector). After two days of checks, nothing was found. But instead of being left alone, the inspectors told him this: "we haven't found anything, but since we have been checking for two days, we have to find something". In the end they agreed on faking some irregularities on the heating system and a 500€ fine. Yes, this is just one episode, but not really an uncommon one, unfortunately. I left my country 5 years ago and never looked back. There are so many better places in Europe, I strongly advice not to start a company in Italy.
  - Lucadg 12y ago
    > "we haven't found anything, but since we have been checking for two days, we have to find something" as crazy as it may sound, this is true and happens all the time. I've got countless similar stories from friends who went through it.
  - 12y ago

hackerboos 12y ago

Is the mafia still a problem in mainland Italy? Serious question...

duiker101 12y ago
Unfortunately it is...
napolux 12y ago
A little subtle than in the 90s, but for sure it's still present.
IlPeach 12y ago
yup, it's widespread and has become part of the culture in many places, regardless in any part of Italy, in the south to certain extremes.
massimosgrelli 12y ago
They got smarter and now they are in the government structures. Not everybody of course, but recent facts emerged in gov corruption that mafia and criminal organization in general were directly managing billions of euros in public infrastructure building. Those billions were paid by Italian taxpayers.

duiker101 12y ago

I'm another Italian and I second this comment. I already run away and things in the UK are much much better. There might not be the same sun or or food. But at least things are more fair and the rules of the game are pretty clear, not just made up on the stop when it's convenient like it would happen in Italy. Italy has currently a huge problem of smart, young people leaving the country because of this situation. Before trying to attract foreign they should be able to keep their own people.

olgeni 12y ago

On a more positive note, the State will probably kill the company way before it's noticed by criminals.

mobiplayer 12y ago

You just described Spain.

bbenko 12y ago
And Croatia.

napolux 12y ago

@gruturo la finiamo con sta storia del buon cibo, del tempo, ecc???

Htsthbjig 12y ago

IMHO Italy is two different countries in one. Similar to Spain. In both countries the south has nothing to do with the north. In both countries the south if sunny, happiness and optimism. But also non serious in all areas of life, including business, and friendship influence and favors economy, also called corruption. I have a German friend that was so happy when he sold so many products to south Italian customers. I asked if he was sure they were going to pay...sure enough he was lucky to get paid at all(after a way longer time than compromised and after lots of problems). Italy is a beautiful place to live, but not for work. You could get the same access to industry, business friendliness and employment that you get in North of Italy in Switzerland or Austria, but without the tax of having to continuously subsidize the south.

arximboldi 12y ago
Well, I can't talk about about Italy because I have never been there. But I am from the south of Spain and my family is from the north of Spain and what you just said is both stupid and xenophobic.

edpichler 12y ago

It seems you are talking about Brazil.

mystixx 12y ago

I'm from Italy as well. As everyone else, I am dissatisfied with how Italy is run, but it's _disgusting_ to see how many Italians living abroad claim the right to hurl mud at Italy. I think the real challenge is to stay here, not to run away abroad. As a proof, here we ended up talking of mafia and corruption, following common stereotypes and therefore giving a distorted idea of Italy. I think most of the people that are saying "run away" are implicitly trying to justify themselves for their decision to go away from their country and family. Sadly, more than in culture, food and wine, Italians are the first for the most destructive self-criticism in the world. I have rarely heard a non-Italian speaking so low of his own country, as only Italians can do.

Antomanno 12y ago
Yes italy is the best place to live worlwide but the dire reality of its socio-economic situation to not talk of the ridiculous Startup Visa program is a fact, especially if compared with others similar program worlwide http://en.wescribe.co/t/the-italian-startup-program-startup-visa http://en.wescribe.co/t/the-italian-startup-program-startup-...
mashermack 12y ago
Speak to someone from Greece then, they are proud of lots of things as we do but honestly, from my point of view staying in Italy isn't what I define "living". Also I don't see those who stays there as people willing to overcome a real challenge, but like someone with no guts to move away from his/her place.
- mystixx 12y ago
  Maybe you want to ignore it, but Italy is so much heterogeneous that living here is not always being home: I'm not home. I'm in Italy but I moved away from my place years ago. It's funny how the same thing can be seen in such different ways. I have been planning since long to go away from Italy and I will eventually go away, but I feel like it's an act of cowardice. You said just the opposite...
edelweiss22 12y ago

flexie 12y ago

A piece of advice from a non-Italian who never lived in Italy: Don't listen too much to people who left their first world country and tries to convince themselves it was the right thing to do. At the moment quite few Italians leave Italy: Only around 80,0000 yearly (~0.1% of the population). For comparison, Denmark, with 1/11 the population of Italy and usually ranked one of the best places in the world to do business, experiences emigration of 45,000 per year (~1% of the population). The immigration into Italy dwarfs the migration away from Italy.

tiatia 12y ago

"We have the best weather, culture, food, wine, beaches, etc, you name it." You don't have the best army. Do you know the thinnest book in the world? Italian heroes...