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question for climbers: what's more difficult to master, the physical or mental aspect of doing a climb like this? i imagine the intersection of people who have

question for climbers: what's more difficult to master, the physical or mental aspect of doing a climb like this? i imagine the intersection of people who have both sides of that coin covered (in any sport) is vanishingly small.

hluska 12y ago
I'm far from an elite climber, but I belong to the Alpine Club of Canada, have taken several courses and done more than my share of rock and ice climbing. I'm not good enough to give you a definitive answer, but I have a story about the mental side of climbing. The first time I ever ice climbed was just terrifying. The entire environment, from the falling ice, to death cookies (if you wear crampons and step on a large piece of ice, your crampons become skates), to the slope is all designed to kill. One of my very first pitches, I was going up just great until I reached about forty feet. Then, the insanity of it all hit me...I mean, I'm afraid of flying in airplanes and there I was climbing a waterfall in the f'ing Rocky Mountains??? As the fear gripped me, my body failed. I started gripping onto my ice tools as tight as I could; so tight my arms spasmed until finally I had no strength left and I dropped. so, there I was on the side of a fricking waterfall, the ice tools (that I borrowed from a guy who bagged Everest) were six feet above me, and I had no strength left. My fear created the exact situation I was afraid of...
- bobbles 12y ago
  Scary stuff, did you survive? But seriously, how'd you recover from that?
  - marcusrussi 12y ago
    I want to know if this guy was leading or on a toprope. If it was a lead climb he had no business doing it, you have to already be a skilled ice climber to lead a pitch of ice since the consequences of a fall are much higher than on toprope. If this was a toproped climb then the guy is exaggerating.
    - snowwrestler 12y ago
      On a tall climb, stretch and a bit of slack are enough to drop 5-6 feet if you fall on top rope. And it's not very nice to say someone is exaggerating their emotional state. :-) It's certainly possible for people to get very scared the first time they climb 40 feet up, even on top rope.
justinator 12y ago
One way to think of climbing is as a mix of mental, physical and emotional parts. You just can't just be stronger than most and expect to finish the route. This isn't so different from other sports, they just have a different mix. A golfer needs a lot of technical skill, and a bit of strength, plus some emotional strength, to get through those tough shots. Can you think of a sport that requires less physical strength? How about a very intense gamer? Emotional strength is a huge part of climbing. Think about it: you're 1,000+ feet in the air. The last piece of protection you have is over 10 feet below you - meaning, if you fall, you fall twice that distance. There's a slight chance that the protection that you've placed could in fact come off, as you fall, making you fall even farther (say, another 20 feet!). Can you keep it together, to make the move upwards, or are you going to freeze, thinking about what could happen? A fall of 20 feet isn't going to be fatal, but it could be pretty messy, if you get tangled in your rope. Now (in the case of the Dawn Wall), you've been working on this project for over 7 years. When do you say, "enough!" and move on? I mean, look at Tommy Caldwell - he mistakenly chopped his own finger off, which could have ended his career, but he kept going, and look what he accomplished!
- curun1r 12y ago
  > The last piece of protection you have is over 10 feet below you - meaning, if you fall, you fall twice that distance. Minor nit, but the ropes used in this type of climbing will be dynamic, not static. That means you'll fall the 10 feet to the last pro, that 10 feet again plus the stretch on the rope...more like 25-30 feet. I've only climbed lead in the gym, but those kinds of falls are still scary as hell. I can only imagine what it would be like that high up. Also, good call on the finger thing. I know the story is about him doing something that no one has ever done before and his injury shouldn't be the focus, but not calling it out is insane and I've yet to see one story include that tidbit. Anyone who's climbed knows just how important fingers are, it's hard for me to fathom climbing an indoor 5.13 without my index finger, let alone this many outdoor 5.13/5.14s. It's utterly amazing that he's continued to be an elite climber after his injury.
- rimantas 12y ago
  Regarding finger, it was even more intense: he chopped it of, got it back, and then chopped it off again, because it has limited dexterity and he was better off with a shorter digit than with the "whole" but not as functional.
freerobby 12y ago
Physical, by far. The number of people who lead climb multipitch walls is much bigger than the number who can climb a single 5.14 pitch, even on a toprope in a gym. Keep in mind that these climbers spend years relying on their gear and taking no shortage of falls. They trust themselves and their partners. I don't want to minimize the mental challenge here (I struggle with it when I lead climb in a gym, let alone "trad" outside with my own gear), but for climbers at this level with this much experience, the fear of falling is sufficiently small that they're thinking about the climb rather than the consequences of a misstep. Climbing 5.14 pitches is a whole other story. Perfect technique isn't enough; you also need a perfect physique -- lean and muscular in all the right places -- and not muscular in the wrong places, because muscle is heavy. Conventional climbing wisdom is that persistent hard work can take a fit person a long way -- to about 5.12 or so -- but after that it comes down to genetics. I'm reasonably athletic, have been climbing on and off for over a decade, and multiple times per week for the last 18 months. I'll be ecstatic if I can ever do a single 5.13 pitch.
- prezjordan 12y ago
  Can you explain what these terms (5.12 vs 5.14) mean? Having trouble finding definitions on google.
  - freerobby 12y ago
    Sure thing, the first number (5) is the class of climb. A sidewalk would be 1; rock climbing begins (and ends) at 5. The second number reflects the difficulty of the [hardest part of the] climb. I believe it originally went from 1-10, with 10 being the hardest thing a human could climb, but innovations in climbing shoes and better climbers have raised the max over the years, so now it goes from 1-15. Imagine the scale as being of exponential difficulty. For the same climber who spent a week going from 5.5 to 5.6, it may take a year to go from 5.10 to 5.11. So you can imagine how elite a 5.14 climber is, let alone a 5.15 one. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grade_%28climbing%29#Free_climbing_2 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grade_%28climbing%29#Free_climb...
  - jonah 12y ago
    Wikipedia has a bit of info. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yosemite_Decimal_System#YDS_class http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yosemite_Decimal_System#YDS_cla... The difficulty is rated as one pitch relative to another and certain pitches as benchmarks for a certain difficulty. e.g. pitch X is 5.13a and pitch Y is somewhat harder so it's 5.13c while Z is quite a bit harder making it a 5.14a, etc.
micro_cam 12y ago
Both of these athletes are blessed with amazing genetics and have spent years training their bodies and developing the physical capabilities required for this climb in addition to spending an inordinate amount of time on the actual route developing muscles memories allowing them to precisely execute these particular moves while straining their bodies to the limit. Objectively, there is actually less danger to a climb like this which occurs on a steep wall far from the ground since you can fall a long ways before you hit something. People have fallen for 50-100 m (the length of a rope) on el cap and been fine. The 10-30 foot "clean" falls these climbers risk are really not bad with a soft catch by a stretchy rope. It takes a bit of time for your mind to accept this fact but it happens rather naturally with time spent on the rock. There are those who focus on climbing without a rope or doing climbs with ground fall potential. Some claim this is a mental challenge but I've found these people are largely idiots or attention speaker who have deluded themselves the can handle the danger or accept death. To me there is no real mental challenge and certainly nothing admirable in this sort of climbing. FWIW I've free climbed routes of 5.11+ difficulty and ~1000 ft of length range which is sort of the "advanced amateur" of multi pitch free climbing compared to this routes 5.14+ difficulty over 3000 ft. Achieving this took years of climbing several times a week combined with dedicated finger strength training and numerous road trips to different climbing areas to practice on different types of real rock.
ropable 12y ago
I have to say the physical. I'm a reasonably dedicated outdoor climber with 5+ years of practice. Place me at any typical section of a 5.12c climb and I might be able to hold myself in place (not ascending) for a minute or so. The hardest thing I've ever climbed rates 5.11b (actually 23 here in Australia where we use the Exbank scale which is actually, y'know, comprehensible :P) The kind of dedication that allows a person to train up to 5.13/5.14 climbs is, to me, just mind-blowing.
- npsimons 12y ago
  You might be interested in "The Rock Climber's Training Manual" (http://rockclimberstrainingmanual.com/ http://rockclimberstrainingmanual.com/). Not that I'm near there (yet), but I've got the book for exactly that reason, and it seems solid.

hluska 12y ago

I'm far from an elite climber, but I belong to the Alpine Club of Canada, have taken several courses and done more than my share of rock and ice climbing. I'm not good enough to give you a definitive answer, but I have a story about the mental side of climbing. The first time I ever ice climbed was just terrifying. The entire environment, from the falling ice, to death cookies (if you wear crampons and step on a large piece of ice, your crampons become skates), to the slope is all designed to kill. One of my very first pitches, I was going up just great until I reached about forty feet. Then, the insanity of it all hit me...I mean, I'm afraid of flying in airplanes and there I was climbing a waterfall in the f'ing Rocky Mountains??? As the fear gripped me, my body failed. I started gripping onto my ice tools as tight as I could; so tight my arms spasmed until finally I had no strength left and I dropped. so, there I was on the side of a fricking waterfall, the ice tools (that I borrowed from a guy who bagged Everest) were six feet above me, and I had no strength left. My fear created the exact situation I was afraid of...

bobbles 12y ago
Scary stuff, did you survive? But seriously, how'd you recover from that?
- marcusrussi 12y ago
  I want to know if this guy was leading or on a toprope. If it was a lead climb he had no business doing it, you have to already be a skilled ice climber to lead a pitch of ice since the consequences of a fall are much higher than on toprope. If this was a toproped climb then the guy is exaggerating.
  - snowwrestler 12y ago
    On a tall climb, stretch and a bit of slack are enough to drop 5-6 feet if you fall on top rope. And it's not very nice to say someone is exaggerating their emotional state. :-) It's certainly possible for people to get very scared the first time they climb 40 feet up, even on top rope.

justinator 12y ago

One way to think of climbing is as a mix of mental, physical and emotional parts. You just can't just be stronger than most and expect to finish the route. This isn't so different from other sports, they just have a different mix. A golfer needs a lot of technical skill, and a bit of strength, plus some emotional strength, to get through those tough shots. Can you think of a sport that requires less physical strength? How about a very intense gamer? Emotional strength is a huge part of climbing. Think about it: you're 1,000+ feet in the air. The last piece of protection you have is over 10 feet below you - meaning, if you fall, you fall twice that distance. There's a slight chance that the protection that you've placed could in fact come off, as you fall, making you fall even farther (say, another 20 feet!). Can you keep it together, to make the move upwards, or are you going to freeze, thinking about what could happen? A fall of 20 feet isn't going to be fatal, but it could be pretty messy, if you get tangled in your rope. Now (in the case of the Dawn Wall), you've been working on this project for over 7 years. When do you say, "enough!" and move on? I mean, look at Tommy Caldwell - he mistakenly chopped his own finger off, which could have ended his career, but he kept going, and look what he accomplished!

curun1r 12y ago
> The last piece of protection you have is over 10 feet below you - meaning, if you fall, you fall twice that distance. Minor nit, but the ropes used in this type of climbing will be dynamic, not static. That means you'll fall the 10 feet to the last pro, that 10 feet again plus the stretch on the rope...more like 25-30 feet. I've only climbed lead in the gym, but those kinds of falls are still scary as hell. I can only imagine what it would be like that high up. Also, good call on the finger thing. I know the story is about him doing something that no one has ever done before and his injury shouldn't be the focus, but not calling it out is insane and I've yet to see one story include that tidbit. Anyone who's climbed knows just how important fingers are, it's hard for me to fathom climbing an indoor 5.13 without my index finger, let alone this many outdoor 5.13/5.14s. It's utterly amazing that he's continued to be an elite climber after his injury.
rimantas 12y ago
Regarding finger, it was even more intense: he chopped it of, got it back, and then chopped it off again, because it has limited dexterity and he was better off with a shorter digit than with the "whole" but not as functional.

freerobby 12y ago

Physical, by far. The number of people who lead climb multipitch walls is much bigger than the number who can climb a single 5.14 pitch, even on a toprope in a gym. Keep in mind that these climbers spend years relying on their gear and taking no shortage of falls. They trust themselves and their partners. I don't want to minimize the mental challenge here (I struggle with it when I lead climb in a gym, let alone "trad" outside with my own gear), but for climbers at this level with this much experience, the fear of falling is sufficiently small that they're thinking about the climb rather than the consequences of a misstep. Climbing 5.14 pitches is a whole other story. Perfect technique isn't enough; you also need a perfect physique -- lean and muscular in all the right places -- and not muscular in the wrong places, because muscle is heavy. Conventional climbing wisdom is that persistent hard work can take a fit person a long way -- to about 5.12 or so -- but after that it comes down to genetics. I'm reasonably athletic, have been climbing on and off for over a decade, and multiple times per week for the last 18 months. I'll be ecstatic if I can ever do a single 5.13 pitch.

prezjordan 12y ago
Can you explain what these terms (5.12 vs 5.14) mean? Having trouble finding definitions on google.
- freerobby 12y ago
  Sure thing, the first number (5) is the class of climb. A sidewalk would be 1; rock climbing begins (and ends) at 5. The second number reflects the difficulty of the [hardest part of the] climb. I believe it originally went from 1-10, with 10 being the hardest thing a human could climb, but innovations in climbing shoes and better climbers have raised the max over the years, so now it goes from 1-15. Imagine the scale as being of exponential difficulty. For the same climber who spent a week going from 5.5 to 5.6, it may take a year to go from 5.10 to 5.11. So you can imagine how elite a 5.14 climber is, let alone a 5.15 one. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grade_%28climbing%29#Free_climbing_2 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grade_%28climbing%29#Free_climb...
- jonah 12y ago
  Wikipedia has a bit of info. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yosemite_Decimal_System#YDS_class http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yosemite_Decimal_System#YDS_cla... The difficulty is rated as one pitch relative to another and certain pitches as benchmarks for a certain difficulty. e.g. pitch X is 5.13a and pitch Y is somewhat harder so it's 5.13c while Z is quite a bit harder making it a 5.14a, etc.

micro_cam 12y ago

Both of these athletes are blessed with amazing genetics and have spent years training their bodies and developing the physical capabilities required for this climb in addition to spending an inordinate amount of time on the actual route developing muscles memories allowing them to precisely execute these particular moves while straining their bodies to the limit. Objectively, there is actually less danger to a climb like this which occurs on a steep wall far from the ground since you can fall a long ways before you hit something. People have fallen for 50-100 m (the length of a rope) on el cap and been fine. The 10-30 foot "clean" falls these climbers risk are really not bad with a soft catch by a stretchy rope. It takes a bit of time for your mind to accept this fact but it happens rather naturally with time spent on the rock. There are those who focus on climbing without a rope or doing climbs with ground fall potential. Some claim this is a mental challenge but I've found these people are largely idiots or attention speaker who have deluded themselves the can handle the danger or accept death. To me there is no real mental challenge and certainly nothing admirable in this sort of climbing. FWIW I've free climbed routes of 5.11+ difficulty and ~1000 ft of length range which is sort of the "advanced amateur" of multi pitch free climbing compared to this routes 5.14+ difficulty over 3000 ft. Achieving this took years of climbing several times a week combined with dedicated finger strength training and numerous road trips to different climbing areas to practice on different types of real rock.

ropable 12y ago

I have to say the physical. I'm a reasonably dedicated outdoor climber with 5+ years of practice. Place me at any typical section of a 5.12c climb and I might be able to hold myself in place (not ascending) for a minute or so. The hardest thing I've ever climbed rates 5.11b (actually 23 here in Australia where we use the Exbank scale which is actually, y'know, comprehensible :P) The kind of dedication that allows a person to train up to 5.13/5.14 climbs is, to me, just mind-blowing.

npsimons 12y ago
You might be interested in "The Rock Climber's Training Manual" (http://rockclimberstrainingmanual.com/ http://rockclimberstrainingmanual.com/). Not that I'm near there (yet), but I've got the book for exactly that reason, and it seems solid.