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Not following NASA and the ISS and well as I used to, I know there were plans to build a 'lifeboat' for the crew. Is that a thing now? If something catastrophic

by mabbo 12y ago

Not following NASA and the ISS and well as I used to, I know there were plans to build a 'lifeboat' for the crew. Is that a thing now? If something catastrophic happens, what does the crew do?

exDM69 12y ago
Yes, there are Soyuz spacecraft that can be used for evacuation in the worst case.
ceejayoz 12y ago
There's always a Soyuz attached, which the crew can hop into and return to earth if necessary. edit: There's also the now cancelled http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crew_Return_Vehicle http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crew_Return_Vehicle, which is probably what you were thinking of.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- nodata 12y ago
  The Soyuz only seats three.
  - ceejayoz 12y ago
    Yep, so when there's a crew larger than that they leave two docked.
  - arrrg 12y ago
    If there are six onboard two Soyuz will be docked. Always. There will never not be lifeboat for everyone, nor was there ever not one for everyone. Currently two are docked and those are the two lifeboats. Those aren’t only lifeboats, though. They are also just the normal crew return vehicles. Here is how crew rotation currently works: Three depart in the oldest Soyuz docked to the station, leaving the station with a crew of three and only one remaining Soyuz. A couple days later a new Soyuz arrives at the station, meaning there’s now a crew of six and two Soyuz docked to the station. Then everyone stays up there for a couple months longer before the now veteran crew departs on the oldest Soyuz and everything repeats. One advantage of doing it this way is that you are constantly renewing the lifeboats, so a Soyuz doesn’t have to survive years in space, only six or so months before it is replaced. Basically, it has to work for its main purpose (returning the crew to Earth as planned) anyway, insuring that it also works as a lifeboat. (Though I would assume that many changes were made to make the Soyuz work as a lifeboat. I would imagine that rapidly departing from the station, potentially with injured crew, is quite a different task compared to a planned departure.)
    - Morgawr 12y ago
      This makes me wonder, I assume they have procedures to dock a deserted ISS, right? What would happen in case of an emergency where both teams (3+3) have to return back to Earth, leaving ISS without a crew? Will they be able to "get back in"?
      - draven 12y ago
        I hope so, if not, they would not have ben able to dock with it after it's been built (and empty at the time).
        Morgawr 12y ago
        Well, the ISS was actually built as a constant iterative process, it wasn't just sent on space as is and then assumed operative. Also I'd assume the first module that was sent to space might have contained humans already right on departure from the Earth. But yeah, obviously they have procedures to retrieve and re-enter an empty ISS, I was mostly curious how or if there's any material around.
        JonathonW 12y ago
        Zarya (the first module, launched in 1998) was pressurized and could support a crew short-term-- the crew of STS-88 (which launched Unity, the second module added to the ISS) entered the station and began unstowing gear and stuff. The ISS couldn't support its permanent crew until Zvezda (the station's service module) launched in 2000, though-- Zvezda contains the station's primary life support equipment and contained crew facilities like toilets and bunks.
        Someone 12y ago
        An astronaut _could_ spacewalk from a Soyuz, open a hatch, enter the IIS, then control the docking from the inside. But reading http://er.jsc.nasa.gov/seh/docking_with_ISS.pdf http://er.jsc.nasa.gov/seh/docking_with_ISS.pdf, at least the Space shuttle could dock with MIR all on its own. Also, reading http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Docking_and_berthing_of_spacecraft#List_of_types_of_spacecraft_docking_and_berthing_mechanisms http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Docking_and_berthing_of_space..., there are almost more standards for docking mechanisms than different types of spacecraft.
- peter303 12y ago
  The docked capsules are rated for about six months, due to chemicals aboard that can degrade or escape. So if a replace vehicle doesnt arrive in time, then the astronauts may be forced to return. I recall a complete evacuation of the ISS almost happened after the Columbia accident because there werent enough Soyuz in the pipeline on Earth. The 20-some modules of the ISS are finicky enough that you dont want to leave the ISS empty for too long or it may catastrophically fail. A lesser concern is that seats have mould inserts specific to the shape of each cosmonaut. I am not sure how they handle swaps. Maybe store the moulds on the ISS.
  - jccooper 12y ago
    The seat liners can be installed in Soyuz on-orbit. When the Shuttle was delivering someone who would return on a Soyuz, they'd bring the liner up as cargo on the Shuttle and swap it in. I imagine they routinely do the same for crew who arrive and depart on different Sayuz (which happens fairly regularly.)
missing_cipher 12y ago
I think the current procedure is to get in the docked Soyuz capsules in case they need to escape. For example: http://www.space.com/15031-space-junk-station-astronaut-threat.html http://www.space.com/15031-space-junk-station-astronaut-thre...
nnhtzgf 12y ago
Currently there is a Dragon from SpaceX attached to the station. It is not equipped for but in a crisis it is capable of returning all crew members.
- ceejayoz 12y ago
  No, it isn't. SpaceX's human-rated Dragons haven't flown yet (and probably aren't finished, nor are they human-rated by NASA yet). The cargo version currently docked has no seats and you definitely can't just hang onto the walls and hope it works. They've got a Soyuz for that.
  - nnhtzgf 12y ago
    Of course it is, rating has nothing to do with reality. Dragon has brought supplies safely back to earth every time so far, and the g-forces were on the same level( edit:actually less ) as soyuz. And Dragon is of course pressurized in case it isn't obvious. As I have pointed out, in a crisis, where there are no other options, it is capable of returning humans. This would involve makeshift seats/beds and landing in the ocean.
    - exDM69 12y ago
      There's two Soyuz spacecraft in case things go bad. If you are aware of a plan to use a Dragon as a lifeboat, please bring out some sources for that. That's a pretty far fetched possibility and surviving re-entry in an unmanned capsule is unlikely. There aren't any life support capabilities (ie. oxygen for breathing) and surviving the 5-10 G accelerations of re-entry would be rather unlikely without being strapped to a seat. Can the Dragon spacecraft even undock from the space station and robotic arm without a human operator on the Canadarm controls?
      - nnhtzgf 12y ago
        As I have said twice now, a crisis can involve abnormal conditions where the usual means aren't available. Your third paragraph is not correct at all. Dragon has life support and reentry acceleration of 3.5g. http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20110014250.pdf http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/2011001... http://www.nasa.gov/pdf/361838main_11%20-%20SpaceX%20Augustine%20Briefing%20-%20Public%20Session.pdf http://www.nasa.gov/pdf/361838main_11%20-%20SpaceX%20Augusti... Quoting from the first pdf: Environmental Control System Astronauts will enter Dragon to remove cargo. Dragon’s cabin is habitable, with air circulation, lighting, fire detection and suppression, air temperature control, pressure and humidity monitoring. Transporting Crew While it initially is transporting cargo, Dragon was designed from the beginning to transport crew and is currently undergoing modifications to make this possible. Crew configuration will include life support systems, a crew escape system, and onboard controls that allow the crew to take control from the flight computer when needed. This focus on commonality between cargo and crew configurations minimizes the design effort and simplifies the human-rating process, allowing systems critical to Dragon crew safety and ISS safety to be fully tested on unmanned flights. And the second pdf: Crew Capability •Both Dragon & Falcon 9 were designed from inception to readily accommodate crew •Immediate focus is on cargo for COTS & CRS commitments, BUT… •In every design decision, the ability to attain human rating rapidly & at low additional cost is paramount Note: Many human-rating requirements are mandated on the cargo vehicle because it must be safe for ISS crew Space Exploration Technologies Corp June 16, 2009 This is why SpaceX was founded 21 Dragon Already Designed to Accommodate ISS Crew •For COTS Capabilities A-C, astronauts will enter (and temporarily inhabit) the Dragon spacecraft for loading and unloading of cargo to and from the International Space Station •Therefore, Dragon already meets the manned requirements to allow this activity, as called out in SSP 50808 •Air sampling and circulation •ISS crew sample Dragon’s air supply through the Air Revitalization System (ARS) port before entering the spacecraft, breathing in the air as provided by the Dragon Environmental Control System. • Air circulation is provided to ensure safe breathability throughout the spacecraft •Temperature and humidity requirements •Touch temperature limits: between 39 F and 113 F •Human Factors •Protection from shock •Restrictions on sharp corners, sharp edges, exposed screw threads, burrs, and pinch points. • All fonts, colors, and labels are consistent with SSP 50005. Dragon is capable of docking and undocking, but for reasons, it is rather berthed via the Canadaarm.
danepowell 12y ago
There's usually two three-person crews on the station at any given time, so two capsules are kept docked and ready to serve as lifeboats. Since the Soyuz is the sole means of transportation to and from the station, they simply put the capsules into a rotation. When a new crew arrives, they leave their capsule docked and the departing crew rides the oldest capsule back to Earth.

by mabbo 12y ago

Not following NASA and the ISS and well as I used to, I know there were plans to build a 'lifeboat' for the crew. Is that a thing now? If something catastrophic happens, what does the crew do?

exDM69 12y ago

Yes, there are Soyuz spacecraft that can be used for evacuation in the worst case.

ceejayoz 12y ago

There's always a Soyuz attached, which the crew can hop into and return to earth if necessary. edit: There's also the now cancelled http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crew_Return_Vehicle http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crew_Return_Vehicle, which is probably what you were thinking of.

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
nodata 12y ago
The Soyuz only seats three.
- ceejayoz 12y ago
  Yep, so when there's a crew larger than that they leave two docked.
- arrrg 12y ago
  If there are six onboard two Soyuz will be docked. Always. There will never not be lifeboat for everyone, nor was there ever not one for everyone. Currently two are docked and those are the two lifeboats. Those aren’t only lifeboats, though. They are also just the normal crew return vehicles. Here is how crew rotation currently works: Three depart in the oldest Soyuz docked to the station, leaving the station with a crew of three and only one remaining Soyuz. A couple days later a new Soyuz arrives at the station, meaning there’s now a crew of six and two Soyuz docked to the station. Then everyone stays up there for a couple months longer before the now veteran crew departs on the oldest Soyuz and everything repeats. One advantage of doing it this way is that you are constantly renewing the lifeboats, so a Soyuz doesn’t have to survive years in space, only six or so months before it is replaced. Basically, it has to work for its main purpose (returning the crew to Earth as planned) anyway, insuring that it also works as a lifeboat. (Though I would assume that many changes were made to make the Soyuz work as a lifeboat. I would imagine that rapidly departing from the station, potentially with injured crew, is quite a different task compared to a planned departure.)
  - Morgawr 12y ago
    This makes me wonder, I assume they have procedures to dock a deserted ISS, right? What would happen in case of an emergency where both teams (3+3) have to return back to Earth, leaving ISS without a crew? Will they be able to "get back in"?
    - draven 12y ago
      I hope so, if not, they would not have ben able to dock with it after it's been built (and empty at the time).
      - Morgawr 12y ago
        Well, the ISS was actually built as a constant iterative process, it wasn't just sent on space as is and then assumed operative. Also I'd assume the first module that was sent to space might have contained humans already right on departure from the Earth. But yeah, obviously they have procedures to retrieve and re-enter an empty ISS, I was mostly curious how or if there's any material around.
        JonathonW 12y ago
        Zarya (the first module, launched in 1998) was pressurized and could support a crew short-term-- the crew of STS-88 (which launched Unity, the second module added to the ISS) entered the station and began unstowing gear and stuff. The ISS couldn't support its permanent crew until Zvezda (the station's service module) launched in 2000, though-- Zvezda contains the station's primary life support equipment and contained crew facilities like toilets and bunks.
      - Someone 12y ago
        An astronaut _could_ spacewalk from a Soyuz, open a hatch, enter the IIS, then control the docking from the inside. But reading http://er.jsc.nasa.gov/seh/docking_with_ISS.pdf http://er.jsc.nasa.gov/seh/docking_with_ISS.pdf, at least the Space shuttle could dock with MIR all on its own. Also, reading http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Docking_and_berthing_of_spacecraft#List_of_types_of_spacecraft_docking_and_berthing_mechanisms http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Docking_and_berthing_of_space..., there are almost more standards for docking mechanisms than different types of spacecraft.
peter303 12y ago
The docked capsules are rated for about six months, due to chemicals aboard that can degrade or escape. So if a replace vehicle doesnt arrive in time, then the astronauts may be forced to return. I recall a complete evacuation of the ISS almost happened after the Columbia accident because there werent enough Soyuz in the pipeline on Earth. The 20-some modules of the ISS are finicky enough that you dont want to leave the ISS empty for too long or it may catastrophically fail. A lesser concern is that seats have mould inserts specific to the shape of each cosmonaut. I am not sure how they handle swaps. Maybe store the moulds on the ISS.
- jccooper 12y ago
  The seat liners can be installed in Soyuz on-orbit. When the Shuttle was delivering someone who would return on a Soyuz, they'd bring the liner up as cargo on the Shuttle and swap it in. I imagine they routinely do the same for crew who arrive and depart on different Sayuz (which happens fairly regularly.)

missing_cipher 12y ago

I think the current procedure is to get in the docked Soyuz capsules in case they need to escape. For example: http://www.space.com/15031-space-junk-station-astronaut-threat.html http://www.space.com/15031-space-junk-station-astronaut-thre...

nnhtzgf 12y ago

Currently there is a Dragon from SpaceX attached to the station. It is not equipped for but in a crisis it is capable of returning all crew members.

ceejayoz 12y ago
No, it isn't. SpaceX's human-rated Dragons haven't flown yet (and probably aren't finished, nor are they human-rated by NASA yet). The cargo version currently docked has no seats and you definitely can't just hang onto the walls and hope it works. They've got a Soyuz for that.
- nnhtzgf 12y ago
  Of course it is, rating has nothing to do with reality. Dragon has brought supplies safely back to earth every time so far, and the g-forces were on the same level( edit:actually less ) as soyuz. And Dragon is of course pressurized in case it isn't obvious. As I have pointed out, in a crisis, where there are no other options, it is capable of returning humans. This would involve makeshift seats/beds and landing in the ocean.
  - exDM69 12y ago
    There's two Soyuz spacecraft in case things go bad. If you are aware of a plan to use a Dragon as a lifeboat, please bring out some sources for that. That's a pretty far fetched possibility and surviving re-entry in an unmanned capsule is unlikely. There aren't any life support capabilities (ie. oxygen for breathing) and surviving the 5-10 G accelerations of re-entry would be rather unlikely without being strapped to a seat. Can the Dragon spacecraft even undock from the space station and robotic arm without a human operator on the Canadarm controls?
    - nnhtzgf 12y ago
      As I have said twice now, a crisis can involve abnormal conditions where the usual means aren't available. Your third paragraph is not correct at all. Dragon has life support and reentry acceleration of 3.5g. http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20110014250.pdf http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/2011001... http://www.nasa.gov/pdf/361838main_11%20-%20SpaceX%20Augustine%20Briefing%20-%20Public%20Session.pdf http://www.nasa.gov/pdf/361838main_11%20-%20SpaceX%20Augusti... Quoting from the first pdf: Environmental Control System Astronauts will enter Dragon to remove cargo. Dragon’s cabin is habitable, with air circulation, lighting, fire detection and suppression, air temperature control, pressure and humidity monitoring. Transporting Crew While it initially is transporting cargo, Dragon was designed from the beginning to transport crew and is currently undergoing modifications to make this possible. Crew configuration will include life support systems, a crew escape system, and onboard controls that allow the crew to take control from the flight computer when needed. This focus on commonality between cargo and crew configurations minimizes the design effort and simplifies the human-rating process, allowing systems critical to Dragon crew safety and ISS safety to be fully tested on unmanned flights. And the second pdf: Crew Capability •Both Dragon & Falcon 9 were designed from inception to readily accommodate crew •Immediate focus is on cargo for COTS & CRS commitments, BUT… •In every design decision, the ability to attain human rating rapidly & at low additional cost is paramount Note: Many human-rating requirements are mandated on the cargo vehicle because it must be safe for ISS crew Space Exploration Technologies Corp June 16, 2009 This is why SpaceX was founded 21 Dragon Already Designed to Accommodate ISS Crew •For COTS Capabilities A-C, astronauts will enter (and temporarily inhabit) the Dragon spacecraft for loading and unloading of cargo to and from the International Space Station •Therefore, Dragon already meets the manned requirements to allow this activity, as called out in SSP 50808 •Air sampling and circulation •ISS crew sample Dragon’s air supply through the Air Revitalization System (ARS) port before entering the spacecraft, breathing in the air as provided by the Dragon Environmental Control System. • Air circulation is provided to ensure safe breathability throughout the spacecraft •Temperature and humidity requirements •Touch temperature limits: between 39 F and 113 F •Human Factors •Protection from shock •Restrictions on sharp corners, sharp edges, exposed screw threads, burrs, and pinch points. • All fonts, colors, and labels are consistent with SSP 50005. Dragon is capable of docking and undocking, but for reasons, it is rather berthed via the Canadaarm.

danepowell 12y ago

There's usually two three-person crews on the station at any given time, so two capsules are kept docked and ready to serve as lifeboats. Since the Soyuz is the sole means of transportation to and from the station, they simply put the capsules into a rotation. When a new crew arrives, they leave their capsule docked and the departing crew rides the oldest capsule back to Earth.