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I'd say it's your comment that is somehow contradictory. Most people are law-abiding citizens not because they fear the threat of eventual violence, but because

by rjaco31 12y ago

I'd say it's your comment that is somehow contradictory. Most people are law-abiding citizens not because they fear the threat of eventual violence, but because of their moral & empathy. Laws are just a framework around it to negate deviations from this stable state, but it's usually not the amount of violence you can unleash that will really convince people to follow laws they don't perceive as legitimate.

bsbechtel 12y ago
So you're saying that 1) laws aren't necessary for moral/empathetic people (the vast majority of citizens), and 2) for those who aren't moral/empathetic (those who deviate from this stable state), the laws don't work anyways?
- rjaco31 12y ago
  I'm saying that it's not laws that are making the majority of citizens behave correctly, and the law enforcement mitigates the effect of those who don't.
  - neolefty 12y ago
    I just had a radical thought (it seems radical to me anyway) -- many of the people I meet not only don't chafe at the laws, they even see them as limiting morality. They wish they enforced a better society. These people aren't activists for the most part -- they don't agitate for change -- but they would support it if it came along. For example, they would support laws and initiatives that increase spending on education, spread wealth more fairly, allow freer mixing among countries, put stricter limits on violence & environmental degradation. These are all things that would carry us further down the path that Pinker has observed that we are already following. However, it's not all that radical in light of the thesis of "Better Angels" -- it must be part of what is propelling the human race in that direction. Do we have an instinct to want things to be better or something? It creates social pressure for society to improve.
- TeMPOraL 12y ago
  I'd say that laws are the framework and moral/empathic people follow them just because they're there. They serve as Schelling points and make it easier for everyone to predict the behaviour of everyone else. People like having constraints and tend to get lost without them. I doubt most law-abiding citizen think consciously about the threat of violence; it's just there to increase the costs of defecting.
- cbd1984 12y ago
  No. You're missing out a whole third group, the people who aren't very moral/empathetic but who do fear reprisals, for whom laws are effective enough to prevent seriously antisocial behavior. They're the petty thieves of the world, the ones who don't see the problem in taking the last two of something even when others have had none, but who wouldn't punch someone because they're afraid of getting arrested and sent to jail. Think Larry Ellison. Besides, for the people who don't care, we have prisons. The laws might not work for them but the walls do.

by rjaco31 12y ago

bsbechtel 12y ago

So you're saying that 1) laws aren't necessary for moral/empathetic people (the vast majority of citizens), and 2) for those who aren't moral/empathetic (those who deviate from this stable state), the laws don't work anyways?

rjaco31 12y ago
I'm saying that it's not laws that are making the majority of citizens behave correctly, and the law enforcement mitigates the effect of those who don't.
- neolefty 12y ago
  I just had a radical thought (it seems radical to me anyway) -- many of the people I meet not only don't chafe at the laws, they even see them as limiting morality. They wish they enforced a better society. These people aren't activists for the most part -- they don't agitate for change -- but they would support it if it came along. For example, they would support laws and initiatives that increase spending on education, spread wealth more fairly, allow freer mixing among countries, put stricter limits on violence & environmental degradation. These are all things that would carry us further down the path that Pinker has observed that we are already following. However, it's not all that radical in light of the thesis of "Better Angels" -- it must be part of what is propelling the human race in that direction. Do we have an instinct to want things to be better or something? It creates social pressure for society to improve.
TeMPOraL 12y ago
I'd say that laws are the framework and moral/empathic people follow them just because they're there. They serve as Schelling points and make it easier for everyone to predict the behaviour of everyone else. People like having constraints and tend to get lost without them. I doubt most law-abiding citizen think consciously about the threat of violence; it's just there to increase the costs of defecting.
cbd1984 12y ago
No. You're missing out a whole third group, the people who aren't very moral/empathetic but who do fear reprisals, for whom laws are effective enough to prevent seriously antisocial behavior. They're the petty thieves of the world, the ones who don't see the problem in taking the last two of something even when others have had none, but who wouldn't punch someone because they're afraid of getting arrested and sent to jail. Think Larry Ellison. Besides, for the people who don't care, we have prisons. The laws might not work for them but the walls do.