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Unlike the baking systems "digital currency" which can be confiscated from its owner or it owner prevented from using it in certain situations (see Wikileaks) b

by Fuxy 12y ago

Unlike the baking systems "digital currency" which can be confiscated from its owner or it owner prevented from using it in certain situations (see Wikileaks) bitcoin give you complete control over your own hard earned money and the causes you choose to support. It may not be much of a currency at the moment since banks are attempting hard to prevent its use but the freedom it gives you outweighs the risk of it being stolen if you are not careful. Bitcoin would hurt Visa and Master Card very badly if it were adopted since it obsoletes their entire business practice. It would also be potentially beneficial for the user since if you could purchase things with bitcoin at your local store the owner wouldn't have to pay the bank or Visa a small fee to make a transaction. That saving could be passed along to you as a reduction in price. Now if there were any decently run services out there that could secure the average users wallets the market would pick up very fast. The biggest problem bitcoin has at the moment is all the hackers stealing the bitcoins and giving it a bad reputation in the news.

olalonde 12y ago
I agree with all your points. My point was that Bitcoin would still offer benefits over other currencies even if it didn't completely replace the traditional banking system.
tzs 12y ago
> Bitcoin would hurt Visa and Master Card very badly if it were adopted since it obsoletes their entire business practice. How do I do a chargeback on a purchase paid for via Bitcoin?
- jasonisalive 12y ago
  Checklocktime + multisig + the reputable third-party arbitrage provider of your choice, if you want.
  - tptacek 12y ago
    So, "you don't".
    - jasonisalive 12y ago
      Um, actually you do. The principal differences are: 1) You can choose your arbitrage provider independent of your payment channel (whereas with Visa/Mastercard you are locked into the arbitrage facility of the payment channel) -> splitting off a feature into a modular component -> more competition among providers -> better products. 2) The arbitrage provider only holds a m-of-n key to confirm your transaction, so they don't hold your funds, so they cannot steal them (directly, obviously they could collude with the intended recipient of the funds, but that's by and by). 3) You can set arbitrary values for how many m-of-n signatures you want and for checklocktime. So you can customise the arbitrage arrangement to suit the transaction far more than any offering from V/MC. Finally, let's not forget that if you really are desperate to keep that classic chargeback commerce experience, there is nothing to stop V/MC rebuilding their system on top of BTC and offering the same package. The current "chargeback" system isn't really a "chargeback" anyway, it's more of a "failure to pay funds that your bank provider agreed to display as pending."
      - tptacek 12y ago
        Are you saying "it's possible to build a chargeback system on Bitcoin, the technology doesn't preclude it", or are you saying "here's how you would do a chargeback on any given Bitcoin purchase today"? If the latter, can you be specific about an actual set of retailers and middlemen you could use to effect it?
- moe 12y ago
  Ask your money back and they transfer it back to you in a new transaction. What's the problem?
  - sanswork 12y ago
    Cases where they don't agree they should refund you. Cases where they just don't want to refund you. Cases where they are scammers/criminals. Cases where your coins are stolen and spent at a store(the equivalent of having your card stolen to buy a tv at walmart).
    - moe 12y ago
      Cases where they don't agree they should refund you. Um, and with VISA they will just happily ignore you taking back what they consider their money and wish you a good day? Cases where they just don't want to refund you. Same as above? Cases where they are scammers/criminals. Why would you send money to those? Since you know there is no Chargeback mechanism wouldn't it be wise to demand product/service first or use an escrow service? Cases where your coins are stolen and spent at a store(the equivalent of having your card stolen to buy a tv at walmart). Oh, I think there we are getting to the point. You are mistaking Bitcoin for a credit card. Well... It is not. It works very differently and if you treat it like "just another CC" you're in for quite a bad time.
      - sanswork 12y ago
        >Um, and with VISA they will just happily ignore you taking back what they consider their money and wish you a good day? VISA doesn't consider it their money. So ya they will do that. You not knowing that suggests a huge gap in your knowledge of how credit cards work/how charge backs work. >Why would you send money to those? Since you know there is no Chargeback mechanism wouldn't it be wise to demand product/service first or use an escrow service? How would I know? A company can seem fine and turn into a scam quickly. I could use an escrow service but then I'd have to arrange that for every purchase when currently I can have it handled for me automatically. >Oh, I think there we are getting to the point. You are mistaking Bitcoin for a credit card. Well... It is not. It works very differently and if you treat it like "just another CC" you're in for quite a bad time. I'm not confusing it at all. I was giving an example that closely maps to the security concern with a credit card.
sanswork 12y ago
Visa and Mastercards business isn't payments it is letting people buy stuff with money they don't have. Bitcoin doesn't compete with them at all. >It would also be potentially beneficial for the user since if you could purchase things with bitcoin at your local store the owner wouldn't have to pay the bank or Visa a small fee to make a transaction. I don't pay them when I make a purchase the store does. That saving could be passed along but it wouldn't be. >The biggest problem bitcoin has at the moment is all the hackers stealing the bitcoins and giving it a bad reputation in the news. The biggest problem bitcoin has at the moment is that it isn't really better than existing systems for 99% of the people in the world with money. And with that comes complexity, security risks and volatility.
dagw 12y ago
Bitcoin would hurt Visa and Master Card very badly if it were adopted since it obsoletes their entire business practice. If Bitcoin ever gets to a stage where it even looks like it has a chance to hurt Visa or Mastercards current business model then they will simply change their business model and use their massive current infrastructure and global network to become the biggest players in the new bitcoin market. I would be extremely surprised if Visa and Mastercard didn't have people wargaming these scenarios as we speak. Now if there were any decently run services out there that could secure the average users wallets the market would pick up very fast. A service provided by Visa or Mastercard perhaps...

by Fuxy 12y ago

olalonde 12y ago

I agree with all your points. My point was that Bitcoin would still offer benefits over other currencies even if it didn't completely replace the traditional banking system.

tzs 12y ago

> Bitcoin would hurt Visa and Master Card very badly if it were adopted since it obsoletes their entire business practice. How do I do a chargeback on a purchase paid for via Bitcoin?

jasonisalive 12y ago
Checklocktime + multisig + the reputable third-party arbitrage provider of your choice, if you want.
- tptacek 12y ago
  So, "you don't".
  - jasonisalive 12y ago
    Um, actually you do. The principal differences are: 1) You can choose your arbitrage provider independent of your payment channel (whereas with Visa/Mastercard you are locked into the arbitrage facility of the payment channel) -> splitting off a feature into a modular component -> more competition among providers -> better products. 2) The arbitrage provider only holds a m-of-n key to confirm your transaction, so they don't hold your funds, so they cannot steal them (directly, obviously they could collude with the intended recipient of the funds, but that's by and by). 3) You can set arbitrary values for how many m-of-n signatures you want and for checklocktime. So you can customise the arbitrage arrangement to suit the transaction far more than any offering from V/MC. Finally, let's not forget that if you really are desperate to keep that classic chargeback commerce experience, there is nothing to stop V/MC rebuilding their system on top of BTC and offering the same package. The current "chargeback" system isn't really a "chargeback" anyway, it's more of a "failure to pay funds that your bank provider agreed to display as pending."
    - tptacek 12y ago
      Are you saying "it's possible to build a chargeback system on Bitcoin, the technology doesn't preclude it", or are you saying "here's how you would do a chargeback on any given Bitcoin purchase today"? If the latter, can you be specific about an actual set of retailers and middlemen you could use to effect it?
moe 12y ago
Ask your money back and they transfer it back to you in a new transaction. What's the problem?
- sanswork 12y ago
  Cases where they don't agree they should refund you. Cases where they just don't want to refund you. Cases where they are scammers/criminals. Cases where your coins are stolen and spent at a store(the equivalent of having your card stolen to buy a tv at walmart).
  - moe 12y ago
    Cases where they don't agree they should refund you. Um, and with VISA they will just happily ignore you taking back what they consider their money and wish you a good day? Cases where they just don't want to refund you. Same as above? Cases where they are scammers/criminals. Why would you send money to those? Since you know there is no Chargeback mechanism wouldn't it be wise to demand product/service first or use an escrow service? Cases where your coins are stolen and spent at a store(the equivalent of having your card stolen to buy a tv at walmart). Oh, I think there we are getting to the point. You are mistaking Bitcoin for a credit card. Well... It is not. It works very differently and if you treat it like "just another CC" you're in for quite a bad time.
    - sanswork 12y ago
      >Um, and with VISA they will just happily ignore you taking back what they consider their money and wish you a good day? VISA doesn't consider it their money. So ya they will do that. You not knowing that suggests a huge gap in your knowledge of how credit cards work/how charge backs work. >Why would you send money to those? Since you know there is no Chargeback mechanism wouldn't it be wise to demand product/service first or use an escrow service? How would I know? A company can seem fine and turn into a scam quickly. I could use an escrow service but then I'd have to arrange that for every purchase when currently I can have it handled for me automatically. >Oh, I think there we are getting to the point. You are mistaking Bitcoin for a credit card. Well... It is not. It works very differently and if you treat it like "just another CC" you're in for quite a bad time. I'm not confusing it at all. I was giving an example that closely maps to the security concern with a credit card.

sanswork 12y ago

Visa and Mastercards business isn't payments it is letting people buy stuff with money they don't have. Bitcoin doesn't compete with them at all. >It would also be potentially beneficial for the user since if you could purchase things with bitcoin at your local store the owner wouldn't have to pay the bank or Visa a small fee to make a transaction. I don't pay them when I make a purchase the store does. That saving could be passed along but it wouldn't be. >The biggest problem bitcoin has at the moment is all the hackers stealing the bitcoins and giving it a bad reputation in the news. The biggest problem bitcoin has at the moment is that it isn't really better than existing systems for 99% of the people in the world with money. And with that comes complexity, security risks and volatility.

dagw 12y ago

Bitcoin would hurt Visa and Master Card very badly if it were adopted since it obsoletes their entire business practice. If Bitcoin ever gets to a stage where it even looks like it has a chance to hurt Visa or Mastercards current business model then they will simply change their business model and use their massive current infrastructure and global network to become the biggest players in the new bitcoin market. I would be extremely surprised if Visa and Mastercard didn't have people wargaming these scenarios as we speak. Now if there were any decently run services out there that could secure the average users wallets the market would pick up very fast. A service provided by Visa or Mastercard perhaps...