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When was the last time you transferred money to someone (esp. out of country), how much did it cost, and how long did it take? Now, imagine you're poor, your f

When was the last time you transferred money to someone (esp. out of country), how much did it cost, and how long did it take? Now, imagine you're poor, your family lives abroad, and a $20 fee on a $500 transfer is indeed a big issue. There are usability concerns (a bitcoin ATM to deposit money and have it sent to an address would be nice) but the use case of near-zero, same-day money transfers is enormous. In the affluent western world it's strange to imagine that someone could depend on your speedy transfers and that even an extra $20 would go a long way.

sanswork 12y ago
I do it pretty regularly as I move countries frequently and have bank accounts in 3 countries at the moment. I generally do international transfers 2-4 times a month. The last ~20 times I've transferred money overseas it has been in my receiving account the next morning and it usually costs ~0.3%. Bitcoin isn't better for remittance. Actually moving the money has never been the expensive parts of remittance it is giving people a way to receive money on the other side and compliance. The current bitcoin remittance companies advertising lower fees are doing it entirely by ignoring compliance and that will work great until they have any volume and then they will be shut down. I've heard people say "BTMs save money on not needing a store" but do you think if an automated machine was doable WU wouldn't have replaced most of their partner branches by now?
- alkimie2 12y ago
  I have to respectfully disagree. It is not the transaction fees itself, but the currency exchange rates that kill you at one end or the other. (I would agree with you regarding intra-Europe CEPA transfers however.) I'm American and have lived overseas for several years and the currency exchange rates in combination with the 10-20 USD fees are a constant annoyance. And an annoyance for my startup which operates in USD but does business in several countries. It badly affects margin for smaller payments. I'm a big Amazon Prime customer and I do a lot of purchase for family and friends for delivery in the US. I don't dare use my overseas credit card to pay for it, but if Amazon were to accept BTC I could pay from where I live. That would be very valuable to me personally. I'm interested in bitcoin because it takes control away from traditional choke point exchange bank and also could serve as a 'world currency' of sorts. I also think that it would make possible a lot of cross-border sales that currently face real practical impediments.
  - sanswork 12y ago
    With bitcoin you don't get rid of the currency exchange rates you add another one. Source -> Bitcoin -> Destination.
    - im2w1l 12y ago
      I think he is not complaining about the fact that currency need to be exchanged but at how big the spread is. I.e. they give him a quite poor exchange rate as a way of extracting a hidden fee.
  - grey-area 12y ago
    It is not the transaction fees itself, but the currency exchange rates that kill you at one end or the other. Wouldn't the incredibly volatile currency exchange rate of Bitcoin also cause problems? It is not immune to this as it is free floating against other currencies. I'd love to see a world-currency which does away with existing credit card companies and transfer fees worldwide, but Bitcoin is not suitable, and I suspect if we see one emerge it will quickly be regulated and taxed by governments like all other means of storing wealth.
IvyMike 12y ago
What happens when my family, let's say in Mexico, receives the $500 and needs to buy food? Is there any way, currently, that they can they do so for less than $20? (Seriously asking, I don't really know.)
- throwawaymsft 12y ago
  Today? Probably not -- changing currencies is expensive. But if merchants realize they won't eat the Visa/MC 3% fee, and bitcoin prices stabilize, it becomes viable. (The Euro has lost over 10% vs. the dollar these past 6 months, let alone the ruble, hard currencies aren't that safe either.)
grey-area 12y ago
The last time I transferred money to someone it cost zero, and it took a few seconds. The same for recurring transfers to me. Last time I transferred abroad I think it cost £20 on a sum of several thousand for a swift transfer, which isn't terrible, and most importantly, the transfer was verified against identities and there is a record on both ends. Same with credit cards abroad and at home, except with much lower fees and strong guarantees against fraud after the payment. Is it being used presently by lots of people on low incomes to transfer money? What if they do and it drops 10% on the day? How would they acquire it easily? How would they exchange it easily and quickly for their local currency? I'd love to see a digital currency which actually competes in a meaningful way with the convenience of digital cash, but Bitcoin is nowhere close. It has serious issues with volatility, speculation, acquisition, storage and lack of regulation/insurance, all of which mean I wouldn't touch it in its current form.
rprospero 12y ago
I am living abroad and while I'm not truly poor, a couple of months ago I had less that £20 to my name, so I'm quite cost conscious. I needed to send some money overseas and I looked at bitcoin for exactly the same reasons that you described. However, I found that sending the money via bit coin would take longer and wind up costing me more in transaction fees than just using transferwise. While the actual bitcoin transfer itself was free and instantaneous, there were multiple days of waiting and percentage fees to convert from or to fiat currency at each end of the transaction.
- internDC 12y ago
  This is due to the fact that bitcoin is not widely accepted yet. An in order for it to be widely accepted, more people have to want it. In order for people to want it, it has to be widely accepted. This is why bitcoin is doomed to fail.
  - throwawaymsft 12y ago
    The same could be said for the telephone, fax machine, or any technology that requires network effects. It might not be bitcoin, but in 20 years do you think no cryptocurrency will be in widespread use?
throwawayaway 12y ago
yeah so that's why transferwise exists

sanswork 12y ago

I do it pretty regularly as I move countries frequently and have bank accounts in 3 countries at the moment. I generally do international transfers 2-4 times a month. The last ~20 times I've transferred money overseas it has been in my receiving account the next morning and it usually costs ~0.3%. Bitcoin isn't better for remittance. Actually moving the money has never been the expensive parts of remittance it is giving people a way to receive money on the other side and compliance. The current bitcoin remittance companies advertising lower fees are doing it entirely by ignoring compliance and that will work great until they have any volume and then they will be shut down. I've heard people say "BTMs save money on not needing a store" but do you think if an automated machine was doable WU wouldn't have replaced most of their partner branches by now?

alkimie2 12y ago
I have to respectfully disagree. It is not the transaction fees itself, but the currency exchange rates that kill you at one end or the other. (I would agree with you regarding intra-Europe CEPA transfers however.) I'm American and have lived overseas for several years and the currency exchange rates in combination with the 10-20 USD fees are a constant annoyance. And an annoyance for my startup which operates in USD but does business in several countries. It badly affects margin for smaller payments. I'm a big Amazon Prime customer and I do a lot of purchase for family and friends for delivery in the US. I don't dare use my overseas credit card to pay for it, but if Amazon were to accept BTC I could pay from where I live. That would be very valuable to me personally. I'm interested in bitcoin because it takes control away from traditional choke point exchange bank and also could serve as a 'world currency' of sorts. I also think that it would make possible a lot of cross-border sales that currently face real practical impediments.
- sanswork 12y ago
  With bitcoin you don't get rid of the currency exchange rates you add another one. Source -> Bitcoin -> Destination.
  - im2w1l 12y ago
    I think he is not complaining about the fact that currency need to be exchanged but at how big the spread is. I.e. they give him a quite poor exchange rate as a way of extracting a hidden fee.
- grey-area 12y ago
  It is not the transaction fees itself, but the currency exchange rates that kill you at one end or the other. Wouldn't the incredibly volatile currency exchange rate of Bitcoin also cause problems? It is not immune to this as it is free floating against other currencies. I'd love to see a world-currency which does away with existing credit card companies and transfer fees worldwide, but Bitcoin is not suitable, and I suspect if we see one emerge it will quickly be regulated and taxed by governments like all other means of storing wealth.

IvyMike 12y ago

What happens when my family, let's say in Mexico, receives the $500 and needs to buy food? Is there any way, currently, that they can they do so for less than $20? (Seriously asking, I don't really know.)

throwawaymsft 12y ago
Today? Probably not -- changing currencies is expensive. But if merchants realize they won't eat the Visa/MC 3% fee, and bitcoin prices stabilize, it becomes viable. (The Euro has lost over 10% vs. the dollar these past 6 months, let alone the ruble, hard currencies aren't that safe either.)

grey-area 12y ago

The last time I transferred money to someone it cost zero, and it took a few seconds. The same for recurring transfers to me. Last time I transferred abroad I think it cost £20 on a sum of several thousand for a swift transfer, which isn't terrible, and most importantly, the transfer was verified against identities and there is a record on both ends. Same with credit cards abroad and at home, except with much lower fees and strong guarantees against fraud after the payment. Is it being used presently by lots of people on low incomes to transfer money? What if they do and it drops 10% on the day? How would they acquire it easily? How would they exchange it easily and quickly for their local currency? I'd love to see a digital currency which actually competes in a meaningful way with the convenience of digital cash, but Bitcoin is nowhere close. It has serious issues with volatility, speculation, acquisition, storage and lack of regulation/insurance, all of which mean I wouldn't touch it in its current form.

rprospero 12y ago

I am living abroad and while I'm not truly poor, a couple of months ago I had less that £20 to my name, so I'm quite cost conscious. I needed to send some money overseas and I looked at bitcoin for exactly the same reasons that you described. However, I found that sending the money via bit coin would take longer and wind up costing me more in transaction fees than just using transferwise. While the actual bitcoin transfer itself was free and instantaneous, there were multiple days of waiting and percentage fees to convert from or to fiat currency at each end of the transaction.

internDC 12y ago
This is due to the fact that bitcoin is not widely accepted yet. An in order for it to be widely accepted, more people have to want it. In order for people to want it, it has to be widely accepted. This is why bitcoin is doomed to fail.
- throwawaymsft 12y ago
  The same could be said for the telephone, fax machine, or any technology that requires network effects. It might not be bitcoin, but in 20 years do you think no cryptocurrency will be in widespread use?

throwawayaway 12y ago

yeah so that's why transferwise exists