8 ms·

Seems like a chicken and egg problem. They barely deserve the salary they get now with all the incidents going on, but they won't get more intelligent people a

Seems like a chicken and egg problem. They barely deserve the salary they get now with all the incidents going on, but they won't get more intelligent people applying until the wages are increased. Probably best to start with the teachers so theres a larger pool if educated people to hire from.

username223 12y ago
According to BLS, coders make something like $93k/yr [1], while policemen make about $57k [2], and primary school teachers make $53k [3]. How much of a pay cut would you take to accept one of those jobs? How much more in taxes would you pay to hire/train better people to do those jobs? [1] http://www.bls.gov/ooh/Computer-and-Information-Technology/Software-developers.htm http://www.bls.gov/ooh/Computer-and-Information-Technology/S... [2] http://www.bls.gov/ooh/Protective-Service/Police-and-detectives.htm http://www.bls.gov/ooh/Protective-Service/Police-and-detecti... [3] http://www.bls.gov/ooh/Education-Training-and-Library/Kindergarten-and-elementary-school-teachers.htm http://www.bls.gov/ooh/Education-Training-and-Library/Kinder...
- knodi123 12y ago
  why should I take a paycut? if we end the war on drugs, we could pay fewer officers more money to do more effective and humane policing, with more training. win/win/win.
  - zanny 12y ago
    Lose for the prison industry, the pharma industry, the military arms industry, the black market drug industry, and police unions. All of which have huge power, and all of which will continue to bribe to keep the blood money flowing.
- woodman 12y ago
  I'm not able to find the BLS methodology used to come up with that $57k figure, does anybody know? Unless they're drawing that from the IRS, I really doubt the accuracy. Cops generally make quite a bit of money from overtime and generous pensions. They also frequently moonlight and get paid well to do very little: any business that employs a large number of temp workers will have an off duty cop hanging out in a back office, for liability reasons. This demand for off duty cops is a result of cities taking on liability for the off duty cop's actions - instead of the business. At one place I worked, security alerted the off duty that somebody was on the roof late one night (presumably to steal copper from the AC units). The cop made a phone call and within minutes a police helicopter was launch and circling the building, that is another reason why off duty cops get paid so well - the employing business gets a little taste of state power at the tax payer's expense.
  - maxerickson 12y ago
    They survey employers: http://www.bls.gov/oes/oes_ques.htm#overview http://www.bls.gov/oes/oes_ques.htm#overview (The OOH uses OES data: http://www.bls.gov/ooh/about/occupational-information-included-in-the-ooh.htm http://www.bls.gov/ooh/about/occupational-information-includ... ) It specifically does not include overtime: http://www.bls.gov/respondents/oes/payterms.htm#overtime_pay http://www.bls.gov/respondents/oes/payterms.htm#overtime_pay
    - woodman 12y ago
      Ah, thanks. So yeah, I'd interpret the information as only accurately reflecting the results of the survey - not reality :) You'd think the BLS would be able to get anonymized IRS data.
- Spooky23 12y ago
  Cops make crazy money. A relative is a lieutenant, make $120k, and overtime brings that up to almost $200k. If he doesn't make the next promotion in a year or two, he'll be retiring at 42 making around $100k. Unless you work for some hick department, a cop will easily make more than 80% in coders outside of the Bay Area, and unlike in software, you don't get nuked when you get old. That said, it's a brutal job that takes a toll on you.
  - dalke 12y ago
    "Cops" is a broad term. For police officers in general, $120K/year base salary is extremely high, and not representative of the average. To get your conclusion you have to compare the highest paying jobs for police officers with the average paying jobs for software developers. Here are more details from the BLS about 'Police and Sheriff's Patrol Officers' for 2013: http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes333051.htm http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes333051.htm mean annual wage - $58,720 50 percentile - $56,130 90 percentile - $90,700 New Jersey mean wage - $88,220 California mean wage - $86,040 San Francisco mean wage - $99,000 A lieutenant falls in the category "first-line supervisors of police and detectives": http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes331012.htm http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes331012.htm . mean annual wage - $82,710 50 percentile - $79,190 90 percentile - $126,320 New Jersey mean wage - $121,670 California mean wage - $122,680 Oakland-Fremont-Hayward - $139,980 New York-White Plains-Wayne, NY-NJ Metropolitan Division - $110,580 San Francisco mean wage - $134,600 (It's very likely that your relative works in one of the major metropolitan areas, as those are almost the only ones with a mean salary around or above $120K/year.) For "Software developers, Applications" see http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes151132.htm http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes151132.htm : mean annual wage - $96,260 50 percentile - $92,660 90 percentile - $143,540 California mean wage - $112,180 Washington mean wage - $111,380 San Jose-Sunnyvale-Santa Clara mean wage - $131,270 San Francisco-San Mateo-Redwood City mean wage - $114,400 Seattle-Bellevue-Everett mean wage - $112,990 The states with the lowest mean wage for software developers (ID, ND, AR, KY, etc.) pay $49,620 to 80,470. This is comparable to the national mean wage for police officers. For "Software Developers, Systems Software", see http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes151133.htm http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes151133.htm the wages are higher: mean annual wage - $104,480 50 percentile - $101,410 90 percentile - $150,760 California - $119,180 New Jersey - $114,630 San Jose-Sunnyvale-Santa Clara mean wage - $132,030 Oakland-Fremont-Hayward - $119,810 Now that there are numbers, I'll evaluate your claims: 1) "Cops make crazy money" I don't know what "crazy money" is, but it's clear that only around 15% of first-line supervisors of patrol officers, and only a handful of patrol officers, make 120K/year. Your relative is on the very high end of a lieutenant's base salary, and probably lives in one of the major cities. 2) "Unless you work for some hick department" I don't know what constitutes a "hick department". The 75 percentile for patrol officers is $73,710 and the 75 percentile for first-line supervisors is $102,600. There are about 6 officers for each supervisor, so I'll say that non-hick cops make around (73710*635380 + 102600*101320) / (635380 + 101320) = $77,683/year. There are also higher paying police officer jobs, but I think this covers enough of the category "cops" to be meaningful. It's hard to say what overtime might bring in on top of that. I don't know how many police officers get overtime. 3) "coders outside of the Bay Area" I don't know what you mean by "coder". I chose "software developer" in the above. There's also "computer programmer", but the BLS says that there are only 6,000 computer programmers in the Silicon Valley area, and 28,980 "software developer, applications" (and a further 23,810 "software developer, systems software"). There are other categories as well, but those seemed the best fit for your statement. The BLS doesn't list "outside of the Bay Area", but it does show that California pays the most of any states, and it lists the total number of software developers (I'm using the "applications" one) in California, in the US, and their mean wage. This is enough to figure out the average non-California mean wage: (643830*96260 - 95510 * 112180) / (643830-95510) = $93,486/year If I further remove the second highest state, Washington, I get $91,612/year. I trust that this is a close enough approximation to your statement? 4) "a cop will easily make more than 80% in coders outside of the Bay Area" That does not appear to be the case. While certainly some cops will make more than 80% of coders, in general, coders will make about $15K/year more than police officers. Again, overtime may change these numbers, but not enough to say that "cops" as a general category get paid "crazy high" income compared to software developers working the same number of hours without overtime. 5) "unlike in software, you don't get nuked when you get old" The BLS doesn't have those numbers. The career paths are different. To get the $120K/year job requires being at least a first-line supervisor. A software developer is not a supervisor. For example, a software developer might become a "Computer and Information Systems Manager", which has a mean wage of $132,570, and the 90 percentile is above $187,199/year. (It's off the BLS charts, which stops at $90/hour.) The mean wage for the 10,660 such managers in Silicon Valley is $183,870. It's therefore very hard for me to figure out the career numbers. I would love to see the analysis you did to draw your conclusion.
- webnrrd2k 12y ago
  I think that police get lots of overtime in addition to the basic salary, and there are often perks, like extra pay for motorcycle cops to clean and polish their motorcycles, etc...
jrs235 12y ago
It doesn't help that departments don't want intelligent officers and can refuse to hire people based on high IQ scores. http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=95836&page=1#.Tv-OZSNWplw http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=95836&page=1#.Tv-OZSNWplw
- fixedd 12y ago
  > But New London police interviewed only candidates who scored 20 to 27, on the theory that those who scored too high could get bored with police work and leave soon after undergoing costly training. Yeah... you solve that with employment contracts, not discriminatory hiring practices. I really don't see how saying "smart people will get bored and quit" is any different from saying "African-Americans are lazy and will eventually stop showing up on time", or some other nonsense.

username223 12y ago

According to BLS, coders make something like $93k/yr [1], while policemen make about $57k [2], and primary school teachers make $53k [3]. How much of a pay cut would you take to accept one of those jobs? How much more in taxes would you pay to hire/train better people to do those jobs? [1] http://www.bls.gov/ooh/Computer-and-Information-Technology/Software-developers.htm http://www.bls.gov/ooh/Computer-and-Information-Technology/S... [2] http://www.bls.gov/ooh/Protective-Service/Police-and-detectives.htm http://www.bls.gov/ooh/Protective-Service/Police-and-detecti... [3] http://www.bls.gov/ooh/Education-Training-and-Library/Kindergarten-and-elementary-school-teachers.htm http://www.bls.gov/ooh/Education-Training-and-Library/Kinder...

knodi123 12y ago
why should I take a paycut? if we end the war on drugs, we could pay fewer officers more money to do more effective and humane policing, with more training. win/win/win.
- zanny 12y ago
  Lose for the prison industry, the pharma industry, the military arms industry, the black market drug industry, and police unions. All of which have huge power, and all of which will continue to bribe to keep the blood money flowing.
woodman 12y ago
I'm not able to find the BLS methodology used to come up with that $57k figure, does anybody know? Unless they're drawing that from the IRS, I really doubt the accuracy. Cops generally make quite a bit of money from overtime and generous pensions. They also frequently moonlight and get paid well to do very little: any business that employs a large number of temp workers will have an off duty cop hanging out in a back office, for liability reasons. This demand for off duty cops is a result of cities taking on liability for the off duty cop's actions - instead of the business. At one place I worked, security alerted the off duty that somebody was on the roof late one night (presumably to steal copper from the AC units). The cop made a phone call and within minutes a police helicopter was launch and circling the building, that is another reason why off duty cops get paid so well - the employing business gets a little taste of state power at the tax payer's expense.
- maxerickson 12y ago
  They survey employers: http://www.bls.gov/oes/oes_ques.htm#overview http://www.bls.gov/oes/oes_ques.htm#overview (The OOH uses OES data: http://www.bls.gov/ooh/about/occupational-information-included-in-the-ooh.htm http://www.bls.gov/ooh/about/occupational-information-includ... ) It specifically does not include overtime: http://www.bls.gov/respondents/oes/payterms.htm#overtime_pay http://www.bls.gov/respondents/oes/payterms.htm#overtime_pay
  - woodman 12y ago
    Ah, thanks. So yeah, I'd interpret the information as only accurately reflecting the results of the survey - not reality :) You'd think the BLS would be able to get anonymized IRS data.
Spooky23 12y ago
Cops make crazy money. A relative is a lieutenant, make $120k, and overtime brings that up to almost $200k. If he doesn't make the next promotion in a year or two, he'll be retiring at 42 making around $100k. Unless you work for some hick department, a cop will easily make more than 80% in coders outside of the Bay Area, and unlike in software, you don't get nuked when you get old. That said, it's a brutal job that takes a toll on you.
- dalke 12y ago
  "Cops" is a broad term. For police officers in general, $120K/year base salary is extremely high, and not representative of the average. To get your conclusion you have to compare the highest paying jobs for police officers with the average paying jobs for software developers. Here are more details from the BLS about 'Police and Sheriff's Patrol Officers' for 2013: http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes333051.htm http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes333051.htm mean annual wage - $58,720 50 percentile - $56,130 90 percentile - $90,700 New Jersey mean wage - $88,220 California mean wage - $86,040 San Francisco mean wage - $99,000 A lieutenant falls in the category "first-line supervisors of police and detectives": http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes331012.htm http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes331012.htm . mean annual wage - $82,710 50 percentile - $79,190 90 percentile - $126,320 New Jersey mean wage - $121,670 California mean wage - $122,680 Oakland-Fremont-Hayward - $139,980 New York-White Plains-Wayne, NY-NJ Metropolitan Division - $110,580 San Francisco mean wage - $134,600 (It's very likely that your relative works in one of the major metropolitan areas, as those are almost the only ones with a mean salary around or above $120K/year.) For "Software developers, Applications" see http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes151132.htm http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes151132.htm : mean annual wage - $96,260 50 percentile - $92,660 90 percentile - $143,540 California mean wage - $112,180 Washington mean wage - $111,380 San Jose-Sunnyvale-Santa Clara mean wage - $131,270 San Francisco-San Mateo-Redwood City mean wage - $114,400 Seattle-Bellevue-Everett mean wage - $112,990 The states with the lowest mean wage for software developers (ID, ND, AR, KY, etc.) pay $49,620 to 80,470. This is comparable to the national mean wage for police officers. For "Software Developers, Systems Software", see http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes151133.htm http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes151133.htm the wages are higher: mean annual wage - $104,480 50 percentile - $101,410 90 percentile - $150,760 California - $119,180 New Jersey - $114,630 San Jose-Sunnyvale-Santa Clara mean wage - $132,030 Oakland-Fremont-Hayward - $119,810 Now that there are numbers, I'll evaluate your claims: 1) "Cops make crazy money" I don't know what "crazy money" is, but it's clear that only around 15% of first-line supervisors of patrol officers, and only a handful of patrol officers, make 120K/year. Your relative is on the very high end of a lieutenant's base salary, and probably lives in one of the major cities. 2) "Unless you work for some hick department" I don't know what constitutes a "hick department". The 75 percentile for patrol officers is $73,710 and the 75 percentile for first-line supervisors is $102,600. There are about 6 officers for each supervisor, so I'll say that non-hick cops make around (73710*635380 + 102600*101320) / (635380 + 101320) = $77,683/year. There are also higher paying police officer jobs, but I think this covers enough of the category "cops" to be meaningful. It's hard to say what overtime might bring in on top of that. I don't know how many police officers get overtime. 3) "coders outside of the Bay Area" I don't know what you mean by "coder". I chose "software developer" in the above. There's also "computer programmer", but the BLS says that there are only 6,000 computer programmers in the Silicon Valley area, and 28,980 "software developer, applications" (and a further 23,810 "software developer, systems software"). There are other categories as well, but those seemed the best fit for your statement. The BLS doesn't list "outside of the Bay Area", but it does show that California pays the most of any states, and it lists the total number of software developers (I'm using the "applications" one) in California, in the US, and their mean wage. This is enough to figure out the average non-California mean wage: (643830*96260 - 95510 * 112180) / (643830-95510) = $93,486/year If I further remove the second highest state, Washington, I get $91,612/year. I trust that this is a close enough approximation to your statement? 4) "a cop will easily make more than 80% in coders outside of the Bay Area" That does not appear to be the case. While certainly some cops will make more than 80% of coders, in general, coders will make about $15K/year more than police officers. Again, overtime may change these numbers, but not enough to say that "cops" as a general category get paid "crazy high" income compared to software developers working the same number of hours without overtime. 5) "unlike in software, you don't get nuked when you get old" The BLS doesn't have those numbers. The career paths are different. To get the $120K/year job requires being at least a first-line supervisor. A software developer is not a supervisor. For example, a software developer might become a "Computer and Information Systems Manager", which has a mean wage of $132,570, and the 90 percentile is above $187,199/year. (It's off the BLS charts, which stops at $90/hour.) The mean wage for the 10,660 such managers in Silicon Valley is $183,870. It's therefore very hard for me to figure out the career numbers. I would love to see the analysis you did to draw your conclusion.
webnrrd2k 12y ago
I think that police get lots of overtime in addition to the basic salary, and there are often perks, like extra pay for motorcycle cops to clean and polish their motorcycles, etc...

jrs235 12y ago

It doesn't help that departments don't want intelligent officers and can refuse to hire people based on high IQ scores. http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=95836&page=1#.Tv-OZSNWplw http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=95836&page=1#.Tv-OZSNWplw

fixedd 12y ago
> But New London police interviewed only candidates who scored 20 to 27, on the theory that those who scored too high could get bored with police work and leave soon after undergoing costly training. Yeah... you solve that with employment contracts, not discriminatory hiring practices. I really don't see how saying "smart people will get bored and quit" is any different from saying "African-Americans are lazy and will eventually stop showing up on time", or some other nonsense.