7 ms·

> Stimulates the Brain to Produce Serotonin except that the serotonin model of depression has been disproven without a shadow of a doubt: https://www.youtube.

by lingben 12y ago

> Stimulates the Brain to Produce Serotonin except that the serotonin model of depression has been disproven without a shadow of a doubt: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISptt3CRAqc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISptt3CRAqc the device may have some effect as placebo but if that's what you're going for, there are many other cheaper alternatives

themodelplumber 12y ago
> except that the serotonin model of depression has been disproven without a shadow of a doubt Serious? Man, that would probably piss a lot of people off. Is this like air quotes "disproven" or a pretty solid actual seal of peer-reviewed disproval?
- Havoc 12y ago
  Given that it's a YouTube link I'm going to go with not peer-reviewed.
  - shkkmo 12y ago
    ...and you would be wrong. The papers he references in his talk are peer reviewed. The lecture, of course, is not :)
- derefr 12y ago
  SSRIs are, across many meta-analyses, pretty much exactly as effective as placebo—and, insofar as placebo itself is pretty effective, it's been found to be because structured attention and the ritual of consuming medicine are themselves somewhat effective treatments for depression. Other lines of counter-evidence exist, including that there are drugs that stimulate other neurotransmitters that help with depression, that there are drugs that lower serotonin that help with depression, that there's no coherent explanation for how serotonin's main effect (neurogenesis) would actually lead to modulating depression, etc. Academia seems focused on the role of the NMDA receptor now, but it'll likely be another red herring too. I recommend reading http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/01/05/chronic-psychitis/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/01/05/chronic-psychitis/ just to get clear on how much of what we're doing is repeatedly picking correlated symptoms and assuming they're the cause.
electronvolt 12y ago
> except that the serotonin model of depression has been disproven without a shadow of a doubt I'd hesitate to say that. First, treatment and cause are obviously not the same thing: increasing serotonin levels in a person and that making their depression 'go away' does not mean that low serotonin levels was the original cause for the depression. So in that sense, there isn't really a "serotonin model of depression"--we're talking about treatments and if they're effective. It's also true that for a lot of mild/moderate depression (which can still be serious in terms of suicide risk) SSRIs do not do hugely better than placebo, although they do perform on average better than placebo (~20%). However, for the more severe cases of unipolar major depressive disorder, SSRIs (and other antidepressants, for that matter) are significantly more effective than placebo. It's also reasonable to point out that the serotonin system likely has an effect on bipolar depression, given the pretty convincing evidence that SSRIs can induce full blown mania in bipolar patients--even those who have not had a full manic episode before (only hypomanic ones). Basically: it's complex. There are other confounding factors, too, such as lower serotonin levels being linked with aggression and impulsivity (and suicide) even in patients who don't report or show any depressive symptoms. So there might also be non-'it cures depression' arguments for SSRIs as preventatives, although there isn't a lot of research that I've read into that in particular. This isn't an argument for this device in particular, though--my bullshit detector is being set off pretty rapidly by the site and claims. Edit: some clarifications, rewordings.
- shkkmo 12y ago
  Having just watched the linked video, it sounds like there is only a clinically (as opposed to statistically) significant difference between SSRI's and placebos for the extreme end of severe depression. One of the interesting points the speak made was: The difference in response recovery rate between studies where the patients know they will receive an anti-depressant (drug vs. drug) and studies where they know they may recieve a placebo (drug vs. placebo) is bigger than the difference in recovery rate between drug and placebo. He then points out that due to side effects, patients are fairly reliably able to determine whether they are on a placebo or on an anti-depressant. When discussing the equivalent efficacy of SSRIs and SSREs he says: "Were there any truth in the serotonin model of depression, and I don't know any responsible researcher in the area who still contends there is. (It's only in marketing where you still see that talked about) Where there any truth to that, SSRE's should not help people recover from depression, it ought to make them depressed" Link to time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISptt3CRAqc#t=1865 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISptt3CRAqc#t=1865 If that is correct, I think it might be valid to claim that " that the serotonin model of depression has been disproven" although I think "beyond a shadow of a doubt" seems hyperbolic. It might be also be argue that "the serotonin model of treating depression" might be clearer.
daenz 12y ago
> cheaper alternatives As a side note, regarding placebos, the more expensive ones often work better than the cheaper ones. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/03/080304173339.htm http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/03/080304173339.ht...
- lingben 12y ago
  not disagreeing with you but there's quite a lot of room between $0.00 and $700 you don't always need the most expensive placebo, just something which is deemed to have value and not free or without effort for example, saline solution which 'burns' a little when injected is more effective than simply injecting pure H2O, so in the sense that it generates slight discomfort it is not 'free'

by lingben 12y ago

themodelplumber 12y ago

> except that the serotonin model of depression has been disproven without a shadow of a doubt Serious? Man, that would probably piss a lot of people off. Is this like air quotes "disproven" or a pretty solid actual seal of peer-reviewed disproval?

Havoc 12y ago
Given that it's a YouTube link I'm going to go with not peer-reviewed.
- shkkmo 12y ago
  ...and you would be wrong. The papers he references in his talk are peer reviewed. The lecture, of course, is not :)
derefr 12y ago
SSRIs are, across many meta-analyses, pretty much exactly as effective as placebo—and, insofar as placebo itself is pretty effective, it's been found to be because structured attention and the ritual of consuming medicine are themselves somewhat effective treatments for depression. Other lines of counter-evidence exist, including that there are drugs that stimulate other neurotransmitters that help with depression, that there are drugs that lower serotonin that help with depression, that there's no coherent explanation for how serotonin's main effect (neurogenesis) would actually lead to modulating depression, etc. Academia seems focused on the role of the NMDA receptor now, but it'll likely be another red herring too. I recommend reading http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/01/05/chronic-psychitis/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/01/05/chronic-psychitis/ just to get clear on how much of what we're doing is repeatedly picking correlated symptoms and assuming they're the cause.

electronvolt 12y ago

> except that the serotonin model of depression has been disproven without a shadow of a doubt I'd hesitate to say that. First, treatment and cause are obviously not the same thing: increasing serotonin levels in a person and that making their depression 'go away' does not mean that low serotonin levels was the original cause for the depression. So in that sense, there isn't really a "serotonin model of depression"--we're talking about treatments and if they're effective. It's also true that for a lot of mild/moderate depression (which can still be serious in terms of suicide risk) SSRIs do not do hugely better than placebo, although they do perform on average better than placebo (~20%). However, for the more severe cases of unipolar major depressive disorder, SSRIs (and other antidepressants, for that matter) are significantly more effective than placebo. It's also reasonable to point out that the serotonin system likely has an effect on bipolar depression, given the pretty convincing evidence that SSRIs can induce full blown mania in bipolar patients--even those who have not had a full manic episode before (only hypomanic ones). Basically: it's complex. There are other confounding factors, too, such as lower serotonin levels being linked with aggression and impulsivity (and suicide) even in patients who don't report or show any depressive symptoms. So there might also be non-'it cures depression' arguments for SSRIs as preventatives, although there isn't a lot of research that I've read into that in particular. This isn't an argument for this device in particular, though--my bullshit detector is being set off pretty rapidly by the site and claims. Edit: some clarifications, rewordings.

shkkmo 12y ago
Having just watched the linked video, it sounds like there is only a clinically (as opposed to statistically) significant difference between SSRI's and placebos for the extreme end of severe depression. One of the interesting points the speak made was: The difference in response recovery rate between studies where the patients know they will receive an anti-depressant (drug vs. drug) and studies where they know they may recieve a placebo (drug vs. placebo) is bigger than the difference in recovery rate between drug and placebo. He then points out that due to side effects, patients are fairly reliably able to determine whether they are on a placebo or on an anti-depressant. When discussing the equivalent efficacy of SSRIs and SSREs he says: "Were there any truth in the serotonin model of depression, and I don't know any responsible researcher in the area who still contends there is. (It's only in marketing where you still see that talked about) Where there any truth to that, SSRE's should not help people recover from depression, it ought to make them depressed" Link to time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISptt3CRAqc#t=1865 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISptt3CRAqc#t=1865 If that is correct, I think it might be valid to claim that " that the serotonin model of depression has been disproven" although I think "beyond a shadow of a doubt" seems hyperbolic. It might be also be argue that "the serotonin model of treating depression" might be clearer.

daenz 12y ago

> cheaper alternatives As a side note, regarding placebos, the more expensive ones often work better than the cheaper ones. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/03/080304173339.htm http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/03/080304173339.ht...

lingben 12y ago
not disagreeing with you but there's quite a lot of room between $0.00 and $700 you don't always need the most expensive placebo, just something which is deemed to have value and not free or without effort for example, saline solution which 'burns' a little when injected is more effective than simply injecting pure H2O, so in the sense that it generates slight discomfort it is not 'free'