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Personally, I'd like to think that the good games will still rise to the top. Monument Valley wasn't a fluke; it's a game based entirely about the art and the c

Personally, I'd like to think that the good games will still rise to the top. Monument Valley wasn't a fluke; it's a game based entirely about the art and the content, rather than stale one-off game mechanics that could be cloned in an afternoon. It got noticed because it was deep and unique. (Did they even do any marketing?) I've rarely found a game with that same level of quality that got no attention[1]. Most of the time, whenever somebody complains about their games getting no sales and I look at the stuff they've made, I see games that are fun and clever, but very one-note. Like, you can already see how the rest of the game is going to go just by looking at a screenshot. That's not a bad thing, but I don't think it's the kind of stuff that sells anymore. (With obvious viral exceptions that occur unpredictably every so often.) Whereas with a game like Monument Valley, you want to get in and explore it because every single level is unique. Several years back, the developers of Sword and Sworcery talked about how their business model was entirely about chasing the long tail rather than aiming for the mass market. It paid off wonderfully for them, and I think — I hope! — it still makes sense. [1]: Hey! If you liked Monument Valley, you should totally check out Windowsill. Short but gorgeous. Listed as an inspiration by MV's developers. Demo in browser: http://windosill.com http://windosill.com

Sevores 12y ago
Deep and unique? It’s like a mashup of Naya’s Quest [1] and Fez [2] (or Crush or Super Paper Mario). [1]: http://terrycavanaghgames.com/nayasquest/ http://terrycavanaghgames.com/nayasquest/ [2]: http://fezgame.com http://fezgame.com
- archagon 12y ago
  Have you played it? It's like watching an animated movie. There is negligible repeated content, at least as far as the art and levels are concerned. Unlike 99% of iOS games, I felt as satisfied in level 1 as I did in 10. (And in fact, some of the best content is in the last few levels.) Everything feels alive and dynamic, from the crows to your friendly neighborhood totem. I even felt feelings. In an iOS game. Can you believe that?!
  - Sevores 12y ago
    I have. It is like an animated movie. Very pretty, but while the mechanics could be deep, I felt that the levels themselves were not. Unlike for example Braid or recently The Swapper, there were no epiphanies, just “rotate all the things and try to tap on the correct tile”. Maybe I shouldn’t have expected a puzzle game, but this sort of space bending would really lend itself to more interesting problems to solve.
    - archagon 12y ago
      I hear the DLC and RED expansion (not for sale anymore?!?) expanded on the mechanics quite a bit.
    - GFischer 12y ago
      People spent A LOT of time on "animated movies" like Dragon's Lair and Space Ace, Monument Valley is better I guess :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon%27s_Lair_(1983_video_game) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon%27s_Lair_(1983_video_gam... Mobile Phone games are suited for that kind of gameplay (and Dragon's Lair has been re-released for iOS I read), everything old is new again I guess :)
    - bentcorner 12y ago
      I don't have much to add here except that Braid and The Swapper are both excellent, excellent games. They don't overstay their welcome and both have very refined game mechanics while also telling an interesting story.
    - Groxx 12y ago
      fwiw the expansion is IMO a much better set of levels. longer, deeper, more bendy. especially after replaying it, the original set isn't as compelling (though still introduces the concepts very well). it is still pretty far down the "not much thinking required, just keep poking" side of gaming though, sadly.
- pervycreeper 12y ago
  Not to mention that the "gimmick" is taken from a couple of M.C. Escher prints. Gamers are easy to impress, I suppose.
  - nsxwolf 12y ago
    With all the crap in the app store, if someone wants to base a game on Escher prints, that's a big improvement. I'll take it.
- HCIdivision17 12y ago
  If you're going to complain about originality, you really should be pointing at Echochrome. The Fez stuff doesn't really kick in until the MV DLC Forgotten Shores. That said, Monument Valley is a phenomenal improvement on Echochrome in style and art direction (though I really do appreciate the stark black and white style of Echochrome). But it's easy to forget just how unusual those games are. There's a dearth of well made Escher games. I can only think of half a dozen off the top of my head, and perhaps none that are simple enough to be on the iPhone (4S in my case). Now, we can argue about what counts as well-made, as there are a few that were acclaimed that I didn't really like (I'm looking at you, The Bridge). But MV really is a fairly unique take on the idea, and about half-way through Forgotten Shores really begins to wake up into its own.
  - coldpie 12y ago
    I'm a huge fan of Fez, and picked up Monument Valley for Android. It was fun, but extremely easy and super short. I decided to pass on the DLC, figuring it'd be more of the same. Does Forgotten Shores step the game up to the next level? Worth buying?
    - HCIdivision17 12y ago
      Unexpectedly, yes. I think it's better in just about every way, and it becomes excellent in a few. My only complaint is that it feels like a third installment would be the real game; I got the feeling at the end of FS that everything preceding was just training (like how a large portion of Portal is slowly and carefully acclimating the player to the mechanics before giving them a gun). I consider $2 impulse-buy money, so I got the DLC. It starts off the similarly, but about half-way through ustwo seems to hit their stride. The last level has some flat-out brilliant Fez effects, and a few of the levels really play proper homage to the Escher design. My math says you get 2/3rds the game at about 50% more quality (integrated over the whole run) at half the price, so that's like twice the value. Compound levels are used more, so the game pleasantly drags on a bit. Just don't expect to be confused or stuck on any puzzles. I won't lie: it's still short, and it's still easy. But it's also two bucks, which is slightly more than a candy bar and a bit less than a load of laundry. And I tend to enjoy the game art for its own sake. So I think the game is still mostly an art project and it stands on its own in that respect. While FS doesn't expound on the plot much, I don't think anyone will mind too terribly. But there is some thread to follow, and for a game without much of a plot there are certainly twists.
jonshariat 12y ago
One note about Monument Valley though: When they added new levels and charged for it, there was a big backlash at first. Luckily there was a counter backlash but it still shows the expectations of most gamers in the apps store. Especially on Android.
- archagon 12y ago
  Sure, but as I think was discussed on the ATP podcast, it was probably a marketing gaffe more than anything. If they had called it "Monument Valley 2" and charged the same, people probably wouldn't have complained too much, as that sort of branding is more in line with App Store expectations. (Maybe not, though.) In any case, whining aside, I doubt their sales suffered too much! And I'm glad we're getting more high profile pay-up-front games like MV to reset buyers' expectations.
- SomeCallMeTim 12y ago
  There's a huge sense of entitlement with respect to iOS and Android apps. People want the world for free, and $1 means they OWN you. The race to the bottom with free being the default has spawned this attitude. And the economics work out so that an indie developer can't really break even on free; you need 10s of millions of users to produce a reasonable income from ads. You can be a critically acclaimed indie game and only have a few million users. Sure you can create a "fremium" game that sucks either time or money from users (where you basically charge people so that they can play the game less; addiction is a terrible thing). But if you don't want to be making freemium games (there's a formula you typically need to follow for them to be successful), you're stuck charging. Here's the worst part: If you decide to make a "demo" for your game so that people can try before they buy, then when they reach the end of the demo, MANY people will end up leaving a 1-star review "SUX costs money!!!!!". Ratings are life in the app store: If someone sees an app with less than 3 stars, they're far less likely to grab it. So because of poor user behavior, now you're stuck NOT offering a demo for people to play -- or you have to release your game as "fremium" even if it's not designed to suck people's wallets dry, which (as I've experienced firsthand) is a recipe for failure. At least my game has 4+ stars; not that it helps.
  - 12y ago
GuiA 12y ago
Monument Valley is visually gorgeous, and I like a lot about it. However it has zero depth as a game- you can easily move through it by tapping randomly on the screen. Also it's built by ustwo, and while they're lovely people, they're far from a small one man shop (they have hundreds of employees in several offices worldwide and know what they're doing when it comes to marketing). I don't think Monument Valley is a strong case for your argument (Sword and Sorcery is a better one, but they rode on the original iPad announcement, which is a strategy you can only use once a decade)
- archagon 12y ago
  It's a puzzle-box/adventure-game-type experience — mostly a beautiful and interesting toy to fiddle with in your hands. Some people enjoy that, others don't. I personally love it, and I can see that a lot of App Store gamers do too. In that particular genre, it's a gem! From what I've read in interviews, the team was comprised of about 6 people, and they didn't do any marketing or advertising. Another recent example of a pay-up-front game hitting it "big" is Wayward Souls by Rocketcat Games (almost $10!!), though they have more of a pedigree.
  - GuiA 12y ago
    Were you on Twitter in the weeks before the game released? They did tons of promotion. It's not billboards on 280, but that's not how advertising is in the App Store world. As far as the game experience, it's far from being in the best of its genre (and I know many game designers who agree on that point). People like it because it's artsy and lends itself nicely to casual play, which is fine. But whatever, that's besides the point- which is that it's far from a one man indie success.
    - archagon 12y ago
      Well, as a long-time gamer who loves these sorts of toy-box games, I'd say it's one of the very best. So THERE! :) For more modest success by an actual one-man developer, you can look at Michael Brough's games. I think he makes a living off of them now, even though they're very niche.
smrq 12y ago
> I've rarely found a game with that same level of quality that got no attention If such a game got no attention... how would you find it?

Sevores 12y ago

Deep and unique? It’s like a mashup of Naya’s Quest [1] and Fez [2] (or Crush or Super Paper Mario). [1]: http://terrycavanaghgames.com/nayasquest/ http://terrycavanaghgames.com/nayasquest/ [2]: http://fezgame.com http://fezgame.com

archagon 12y ago
Have you played it? It's like watching an animated movie. There is negligible repeated content, at least as far as the art and levels are concerned. Unlike 99% of iOS games, I felt as satisfied in level 1 as I did in 10. (And in fact, some of the best content is in the last few levels.) Everything feels alive and dynamic, from the crows to your friendly neighborhood totem. I even felt feelings. In an iOS game. Can you believe that?!
- Sevores 12y ago
  I have. It is like an animated movie. Very pretty, but while the mechanics could be deep, I felt that the levels themselves were not. Unlike for example Braid or recently The Swapper, there were no epiphanies, just “rotate all the things and try to tap on the correct tile”. Maybe I shouldn’t have expected a puzzle game, but this sort of space bending would really lend itself to more interesting problems to solve.
  - archagon 12y ago
    I hear the DLC and RED expansion (not for sale anymore?!?) expanded on the mechanics quite a bit.
  - GFischer 12y ago
    People spent A LOT of time on "animated movies" like Dragon's Lair and Space Ace, Monument Valley is better I guess :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon%27s_Lair_(1983_video_game) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon%27s_Lair_(1983_video_gam... Mobile Phone games are suited for that kind of gameplay (and Dragon's Lair has been re-released for iOS I read), everything old is new again I guess :)
  - bentcorner 12y ago
    I don't have much to add here except that Braid and The Swapper are both excellent, excellent games. They don't overstay their welcome and both have very refined game mechanics while also telling an interesting story.
  - Groxx 12y ago
    fwiw the expansion is IMO a much better set of levels. longer, deeper, more bendy. especially after replaying it, the original set isn't as compelling (though still introduces the concepts very well). it is still pretty far down the "not much thinking required, just keep poking" side of gaming though, sadly.
pervycreeper 12y ago
Not to mention that the "gimmick" is taken from a couple of M.C. Escher prints. Gamers are easy to impress, I suppose.
- nsxwolf 12y ago
  With all the crap in the app store, if someone wants to base a game on Escher prints, that's a big improvement. I'll take it.
HCIdivision17 12y ago
If you're going to complain about originality, you really should be pointing at Echochrome. The Fez stuff doesn't really kick in until the MV DLC Forgotten Shores. That said, Monument Valley is a phenomenal improvement on Echochrome in style and art direction (though I really do appreciate the stark black and white style of Echochrome). But it's easy to forget just how unusual those games are. There's a dearth of well made Escher games. I can only think of half a dozen off the top of my head, and perhaps none that are simple enough to be on the iPhone (4S in my case). Now, we can argue about what counts as well-made, as there are a few that were acclaimed that I didn't really like (I'm looking at you, The Bridge). But MV really is a fairly unique take on the idea, and about half-way through Forgotten Shores really begins to wake up into its own.
- coldpie 12y ago
  I'm a huge fan of Fez, and picked up Monument Valley for Android. It was fun, but extremely easy and super short. I decided to pass on the DLC, figuring it'd be more of the same. Does Forgotten Shores step the game up to the next level? Worth buying?
  - HCIdivision17 12y ago
    Unexpectedly, yes. I think it's better in just about every way, and it becomes excellent in a few. My only complaint is that it feels like a third installment would be the real game; I got the feeling at the end of FS that everything preceding was just training (like how a large portion of Portal is slowly and carefully acclimating the player to the mechanics before giving them a gun). I consider $2 impulse-buy money, so I got the DLC. It starts off the similarly, but about half-way through ustwo seems to hit their stride. The last level has some flat-out brilliant Fez effects, and a few of the levels really play proper homage to the Escher design. My math says you get 2/3rds the game at about 50% more quality (integrated over the whole run) at half the price, so that's like twice the value. Compound levels are used more, so the game pleasantly drags on a bit. Just don't expect to be confused or stuck on any puzzles. I won't lie: it's still short, and it's still easy. But it's also two bucks, which is slightly more than a candy bar and a bit less than a load of laundry. And I tend to enjoy the game art for its own sake. So I think the game is still mostly an art project and it stands on its own in that respect. While FS doesn't expound on the plot much, I don't think anyone will mind too terribly. But there is some thread to follow, and for a game without much of a plot there are certainly twists.

jonshariat 12y ago

One note about Monument Valley though: When they added new levels and charged for it, there was a big backlash at first. Luckily there was a counter backlash but it still shows the expectations of most gamers in the apps store. Especially on Android.

archagon 12y ago
Sure, but as I think was discussed on the ATP podcast, it was probably a marketing gaffe more than anything. If they had called it "Monument Valley 2" and charged the same, people probably wouldn't have complained too much, as that sort of branding is more in line with App Store expectations. (Maybe not, though.) In any case, whining aside, I doubt their sales suffered too much! And I'm glad we're getting more high profile pay-up-front games like MV to reset buyers' expectations.
SomeCallMeTim 12y ago
There's a huge sense of entitlement with respect to iOS and Android apps. People want the world for free, and $1 means they OWN you. The race to the bottom with free being the default has spawned this attitude. And the economics work out so that an indie developer can't really break even on free; you need 10s of millions of users to produce a reasonable income from ads. You can be a critically acclaimed indie game and only have a few million users. Sure you can create a "fremium" game that sucks either time or money from users (where you basically charge people so that they can play the game less; addiction is a terrible thing). But if you don't want to be making freemium games (there's a formula you typically need to follow for them to be successful), you're stuck charging. Here's the worst part: If you decide to make a "demo" for your game so that people can try before they buy, then when they reach the end of the demo, MANY people will end up leaving a 1-star review "SUX costs money!!!!!". Ratings are life in the app store: If someone sees an app with less than 3 stars, they're far less likely to grab it. So because of poor user behavior, now you're stuck NOT offering a demo for people to play -- or you have to release your game as "fremium" even if it's not designed to suck people's wallets dry, which (as I've experienced firsthand) is a recipe for failure. At least my game has 4+ stars; not that it helps.
- 12y ago

GuiA 12y ago

Monument Valley is visually gorgeous, and I like a lot about it. However it has zero depth as a game- you can easily move through it by tapping randomly on the screen. Also it's built by ustwo, and while they're lovely people, they're far from a small one man shop (they have hundreds of employees in several offices worldwide and know what they're doing when it comes to marketing). I don't think Monument Valley is a strong case for your argument (Sword and Sorcery is a better one, but they rode on the original iPad announcement, which is a strategy you can only use once a decade)

archagon 12y ago
It's a puzzle-box/adventure-game-type experience — mostly a beautiful and interesting toy to fiddle with in your hands. Some people enjoy that, others don't. I personally love it, and I can see that a lot of App Store gamers do too. In that particular genre, it's a gem! From what I've read in interviews, the team was comprised of about 6 people, and they didn't do any marketing or advertising. Another recent example of a pay-up-front game hitting it "big" is Wayward Souls by Rocketcat Games (almost $10!!), though they have more of a pedigree.
- GuiA 12y ago
  Were you on Twitter in the weeks before the game released? They did tons of promotion. It's not billboards on 280, but that's not how advertising is in the App Store world. As far as the game experience, it's far from being in the best of its genre (and I know many game designers who agree on that point). People like it because it's artsy and lends itself nicely to casual play, which is fine. But whatever, that's besides the point- which is that it's far from a one man indie success.
  - archagon 12y ago
    Well, as a long-time gamer who loves these sorts of toy-box games, I'd say it's one of the very best. So THERE! :) For more modest success by an actual one-man developer, you can look at Michael Brough's games. I think he makes a living off of them now, even though they're very niche.

smrq 12y ago

> I've rarely found a game with that same level of quality that got no attention If such a game got no attention... how would you find it?