4 ms·

Isn't this the city's job? I actually think it's kind of creepy that Corporations are taking the role of the City. The general idea is the City collects taxes a

by hnriot 12y ago

Isn't this the city's job? I actually think it's kind of creepy that Corporations are taking the role of the City. The general idea is the City collects taxes and uses those to provide services like buses.

dmishe 12y ago
Well yes, but Mountain View isn't exactly good at anything like that.
cmelbye 12y ago
In my anecdotal experience, it seems like at least a few Bay Area cities have a hard time doing that properly. Public transit is terrible here. I'm excited at the prospect of a private company giving it a try as a free service to the public. Of course, it's not pure altruism, there are PR motivations. But that's not necessarily a bad thing.
- Kalium 12y ago
  My general impression is not that cities have a hard time doing public transit properly. It's that the politics of it make good public transit damn near impossible. Exclusive bedroom communities don't want to be accessible to carless commuters and Muni is impossible to improve because everything is a racist plot against minorities.
  - cmelbye 12y ago
    Good public transit is not impossible. It's done in other cities. There's just something about the political process of San Francisco, for example, that makes it difficult to improve MUNI.
    - Kalium 12y ago
      In political terms, I suspect perfect has become the enemy of good.
- mattmurdog 12y ago
  The problem isn't really with public transit, it's with traffic and hipsters on their bikes in the middle of the road.
- TheCoelacanth 12y ago
  Almost the entire US has a problem doing public transit properly. They are a variety of reasons, but it mostly boils down to government policies that favor private vehicles and suburban sprawl.
- driverdan 12y ago
  > Public transit is terrible here It sounds like you've never traveled outside the bay area. Muni + BART + Caltrain is far more than most cities have. What other cities have a system like Caltrain? I'm not saying it's perfect, far from that. There are plenty of issues, especially with Muni. But it's not terrible.
  - dragonwriter 12y ago
    > It sounds like you've never traveled outside the bay area. It seems to me that many urban areas in the US have better public transit than the Bay Area, and, even moreso, places in the developed world outside of the US tend to be better than the US. Its true that the Bay Area's public transit is better than pretty much anywhere else in California, but that seems to be setting the bar low enough that you can trip over it.
    - ecspike 12y ago
      Agreed. Many cities on the East Coast have a Caltrain like system in the Amtrak Acela trains. DC, ATL, NYC, Baltimore all crush the system here. Muni is terrible. Full stop.
  - estebank 12y ago
    > It sounds like you've never traveled outside the bay area. Or that cmelbye has traveled outside the US. > There are plenty of issues, especially with Muni. But it's not terrible. I agree it's not as horrible as people make it out to be, but it is still in a pretty sad state. I've tried moving exclusively with public transport for the last month, but far too many times the Muni bus that was supposed to come just didn't for more than an hour, even though the sign said it would come 3 times in that time. And that's within SF, which is miles better than the rest of the bay area.
dragonwriter 12y ago
> Isn't this the city's job? I actually think it's kind of creepy that Corporations are taking the role of the City. The general idea is the City collects taxes and uses those to provide services like buses. The article seems to indicate that city is operating them and Google is funding them (EDIT: see the chain of replies, its a bit different structure; I don't think that invalidates the following point, however); while I don't think that it should be the exclusive means, I don't see why you wouldn't want to accept that one way that new public services might be piloted is by having an interested private party who has the funds and thinks the service would be valuable simply contribute support for the service for the period of the pilot project, which is what is happening here.
- Kalium 12y ago
  I'm not sure I agree with your interpretation. To my reading, the article implies the buses are operated by Google.
  - chockablock 12y ago
    According to the FAQ [1] you're both wrong :) "Google has contracted with ALTRANS ... to manage the daily operations and customer service needs for the Mountain View Community Shuttle." [1] http://www.mountainview.gov/depts/pw/community_shuttle.asp http://www.mountainview.gov/depts/pw/community_shuttle.asp
    - Kalium 12y ago
      Thank you! Overseen by the city. Huh. Wonder what that structure looks like.
scrollaway 12y ago
In most of the UK, buses are operated by private corps. It's actually fairly annoying as it means a ticket for one bus doesn't work in another, and there is no way to get a generic bus pass... but I don't see why it shouldn't be this way, to be honest.
- wereHamster 12y ago
  In switzerland the GA (https://www.sbb.ch/en/travelcards-and-tickets/railpasses/ga.html https://www.sbb.ch/en/travelcards-and-tickets/railpasses/ga....) is valid on most public transportation, including those which are partially or completely private. And the card gives you reduced fare on many of the ski/mountain lifts. Also, I can buy a ticket for most of the participating companies with a single iPhone app (the 'SBB Mobile' app). The SBB btw is state owned.
  - allendoerfer 12y ago
    In Germany there are different companies operating trains, which is mostly abstracted away from the customer, so tickets are valid on different trains from different companies and can be bought at the same place most of the time. The intentions of this system are good and even if DB bullies its smaller competitors i like the concept. But much like in software, it gets messy, when the abstraction breaks and there is an exception to the rule. Users not knowing the underlying system get confused. The SBB enjoys a perfect image here. I rose up near the border to Basel, where local trains are operated by the SBB. People mention all the time, how evil Die Bahn is, how perfect it once was, what terrible mistake it was to privatize it and how perfect the state owned SBB is. Anecdotally i once went from Frankfurt to Milano by train. It arrived in Basel 20 minutes late, went through Switzerland without any incident, arrived in Italy, got stuck in a tunnel for an hour and had to change directions back to Switzerland. The train before us had broke down directly after the Italian border. Was glad to see my prejudices satisfied.
- imron 12y ago
  >but I don't see why it shouldn't be this way, to be honest. Because essential public services shouldn't be reliant on the whim of a company. This is why we have taxes. If the city doesn't have enough money to be funding such services, it should perhaps look in to why Google pays so little tax.
hackuser 12y ago
> Isn't this the city's job? I actually think it's kind of creepy that Corporations are taking the role of the City. The general idea is the City collects taxes and uses those to provide services like buses. This is a widespread problem. As conservatives, many of them wealthy, push for a reduction in government power,[1] that makes the wealthy relatively more powerful. A similar point was raised about a park in NYC being financed by a wealthy citizen. Do citizens get an equal say in its design, location, rules, etc.? It is literally undemocratic to allocate that power to those with more money. The same applies to funding for scientific research, and more. We become more and more dependent on these people and their influence grows. That doesn't mean all charity by the wealthy is bad or even ill-intended, it means that reducing our government's power doesn't eliminate the power, it just hands it to another group. [1] Off-topic: Note that a certain group of conservatives (I'm not sure "Tea Party" corresponds exactly) also push to reduce the power of other competing groups, including unions, the media, "liberals", voters in poor districts, etc. They make arguments for each, but follow the money and power: It leaves business alone on the political battlefield.
sp332 12y ago
But if I want more buses, I can't just give the money to the city. They'd have to make some kind of contorted tax category that only applies to me so they can take my money. That's assuming I can convince them to spend my money on the buses instead of some other project.
- dragonwriter 12y ago
  > But if I want more buses, I can't just give the money to the city. Sure you can -- its called a grant. Private entities can issue grants with public entities as the recipients -- it happens all the time.
  - sp332 12y ago
    Huh, that's cool. But since Google is already running buses, how does interposing the city make tings better?
UrMomReadsHN 12y ago
Interesting that's why cities like HOAs so much - they provide some of the services which would otherwise be provided by the city. Things like slow plowing, lighting, garbage pickup, and maintenance of shared areas (which would otherwise be public areas). Yet they still collect taxes from them.
pronoiac 12y ago
I'd guess that the problem is that multiple cities are involved, and they suck at cooperating amongst themselves.

by hnriot 12y ago

dmishe 12y ago

Well yes, but Mountain View isn't exactly good at anything like that.

cmelbye 12y ago

In my anecdotal experience, it seems like at least a few Bay Area cities have a hard time doing that properly. Public transit is terrible here. I'm excited at the prospect of a private company giving it a try as a free service to the public. Of course, it's not pure altruism, there are PR motivations. But that's not necessarily a bad thing.

Kalium 12y ago
My general impression is not that cities have a hard time doing public transit properly. It's that the politics of it make good public transit damn near impossible. Exclusive bedroom communities don't want to be accessible to carless commuters and Muni is impossible to improve because everything is a racist plot against minorities.
- cmelbye 12y ago
  Good public transit is not impossible. It's done in other cities. There's just something about the political process of San Francisco, for example, that makes it difficult to improve MUNI.
  - Kalium 12y ago
    In political terms, I suspect perfect has become the enemy of good.
mattmurdog 12y ago
The problem isn't really with public transit, it's with traffic and hipsters on their bikes in the middle of the road.
TheCoelacanth 12y ago
Almost the entire US has a problem doing public transit properly. They are a variety of reasons, but it mostly boils down to government policies that favor private vehicles and suburban sprawl.
driverdan 12y ago
> Public transit is terrible here It sounds like you've never traveled outside the bay area. Muni + BART + Caltrain is far more than most cities have. What other cities have a system like Caltrain? I'm not saying it's perfect, far from that. There are plenty of issues, especially with Muni. But it's not terrible.
- dragonwriter 12y ago
  > It sounds like you've never traveled outside the bay area. It seems to me that many urban areas in the US have better public transit than the Bay Area, and, even moreso, places in the developed world outside of the US tend to be better than the US. Its true that the Bay Area's public transit is better than pretty much anywhere else in California, but that seems to be setting the bar low enough that you can trip over it.
  - ecspike 12y ago
    Agreed. Many cities on the East Coast have a Caltrain like system in the Amtrak Acela trains. DC, ATL, NYC, Baltimore all crush the system here. Muni is terrible. Full stop.
- estebank 12y ago
  > It sounds like you've never traveled outside the bay area. Or that cmelbye has traveled outside the US. > There are plenty of issues, especially with Muni. But it's not terrible. I agree it's not as horrible as people make it out to be, but it is still in a pretty sad state. I've tried moving exclusively with public transport for the last month, but far too many times the Muni bus that was supposed to come just didn't for more than an hour, even though the sign said it would come 3 times in that time. And that's within SF, which is miles better than the rest of the bay area.

dragonwriter 12y ago

> Isn't this the city's job? I actually think it's kind of creepy that Corporations are taking the role of the City. The general idea is the City collects taxes and uses those to provide services like buses. The article seems to indicate that city is operating them and Google is funding them (EDIT: see the chain of replies, its a bit different structure; I don't think that invalidates the following point, however); while I don't think that it should be the exclusive means, I don't see why you wouldn't want to accept that one way that new public services might be piloted is by having an interested private party who has the funds and thinks the service would be valuable simply contribute support for the service for the period of the pilot project, which is what is happening here.

Kalium 12y ago
I'm not sure I agree with your interpretation. To my reading, the article implies the buses are operated by Google.
- chockablock 12y ago
  According to the FAQ [1] you're both wrong :) "Google has contracted with ALTRANS ... to manage the daily operations and customer service needs for the Mountain View Community Shuttle." [1] http://www.mountainview.gov/depts/pw/community_shuttle.asp http://www.mountainview.gov/depts/pw/community_shuttle.asp
  - Kalium 12y ago
    Thank you! Overseen by the city. Huh. Wonder what that structure looks like.

scrollaway 12y ago

In most of the UK, buses are operated by private corps. It's actually fairly annoying as it means a ticket for one bus doesn't work in another, and there is no way to get a generic bus pass... but I don't see why it shouldn't be this way, to be honest.

wereHamster 12y ago
In switzerland the GA (https://www.sbb.ch/en/travelcards-and-tickets/railpasses/ga.html https://www.sbb.ch/en/travelcards-and-tickets/railpasses/ga....) is valid on most public transportation, including those which are partially or completely private. And the card gives you reduced fare on many of the ski/mountain lifts. Also, I can buy a ticket for most of the participating companies with a single iPhone app (the 'SBB Mobile' app). The SBB btw is state owned.
- allendoerfer 12y ago
  In Germany there are different companies operating trains, which is mostly abstracted away from the customer, so tickets are valid on different trains from different companies and can be bought at the same place most of the time. The intentions of this system are good and even if DB bullies its smaller competitors i like the concept. But much like in software, it gets messy, when the abstraction breaks and there is an exception to the rule. Users not knowing the underlying system get confused. The SBB enjoys a perfect image here. I rose up near the border to Basel, where local trains are operated by the SBB. People mention all the time, how evil Die Bahn is, how perfect it once was, what terrible mistake it was to privatize it and how perfect the state owned SBB is. Anecdotally i once went from Frankfurt to Milano by train. It arrived in Basel 20 minutes late, went through Switzerland without any incident, arrived in Italy, got stuck in a tunnel for an hour and had to change directions back to Switzerland. The train before us had broke down directly after the Italian border. Was glad to see my prejudices satisfied.
imron 12y ago
>but I don't see why it shouldn't be this way, to be honest. Because essential public services shouldn't be reliant on the whim of a company. This is why we have taxes. If the city doesn't have enough money to be funding such services, it should perhaps look in to why Google pays so little tax.

hackuser 12y ago

> Isn't this the city's job? I actually think it's kind of creepy that Corporations are taking the role of the City. The general idea is the City collects taxes and uses those to provide services like buses. This is a widespread problem. As conservatives, many of them wealthy, push for a reduction in government power,[1] that makes the wealthy relatively more powerful. A similar point was raised about a park in NYC being financed by a wealthy citizen. Do citizens get an equal say in its design, location, rules, etc.? It is literally undemocratic to allocate that power to those with more money. The same applies to funding for scientific research, and more. We become more and more dependent on these people and their influence grows. That doesn't mean all charity by the wealthy is bad or even ill-intended, it means that reducing our government's power doesn't eliminate the power, it just hands it to another group. [1] Off-topic: Note that a certain group of conservatives (I'm not sure "Tea Party" corresponds exactly) also push to reduce the power of other competing groups, including unions, the media, "liberals", voters in poor districts, etc. They make arguments for each, but follow the money and power: It leaves business alone on the political battlefield.

sp332 12y ago

But if I want more buses, I can't just give the money to the city. They'd have to make some kind of contorted tax category that only applies to me so they can take my money. That's assuming I can convince them to spend my money on the buses instead of some other project.

dragonwriter 12y ago
> But if I want more buses, I can't just give the money to the city. Sure you can -- its called a grant. Private entities can issue grants with public entities as the recipients -- it happens all the time.
- sp332 12y ago
  Huh, that's cool. But since Google is already running buses, how does interposing the city make tings better?

UrMomReadsHN 12y ago

Interesting that's why cities like HOAs so much - they provide some of the services which would otherwise be provided by the city. Things like slow plowing, lighting, garbage pickup, and maintenance of shared areas (which would otherwise be public areas). Yet they still collect taxes from them.

pronoiac 12y ago

I'd guess that the problem is that multiple cities are involved, and they suck at cooperating amongst themselves.