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Wait. Why did the women allow the male to run with their idea? Why didn't they continue and run with it themselves? Are we supposed to sit patiently watching

by brador 12y ago

Wait. Why did the women allow the male to run with their idea? Why didn't they continue and run with it themselves? Are we supposed to sit patiently watching the gears turn until person A thinks of the idea themselves? It's a meeting. Speak up, run with ideas, contribute. If you're gonna be mousey you're gonna get run over. Male or female.

frandroid 12y ago
But you do understand that men face this hurdle much less in the first place?
ebiester 12y ago
Ah, but the woman will be negatively perceived for that action. If even powerful women speak less consciously because of negative reactions, there might just be more than smoke. What if we started believing women when they tell us their experiences?
- brador 12y ago
  > What if we started believing women when they tell us their experiences? I have a ratio of around 1:10 female:male from my tech staff. I have not seen this "powerful women speak less consciously because of negative reactions" from women any more or less than I see in men. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, I am saying it's natural for variation to exist and it's not exclusive to women. But whatever, keep pushing that narrative. It hasn't worked in 12 months, but maybe today eh.
  - ebiester 12y ago
    Have you asked them, and listened rather than dismiss what they say? I have. I am not just pushing narrative here.
emsy 12y ago
I think it's not so easy, unfortunately. A while ago I read an article that woman who are eager to argue in business are perceived as bitchy, while men with the same eagerness were perceived as ambitious (by both men and women). In my experience, there are many such subtle discriminations that makes it hard for women to speak up.
jmagoon 12y ago
The women didn't "allow" anything. They began to speak and their ideas were finished by men, with the rest of the meeting nodding along with them. When there's a female minority and an implicit cultural approval for this type of behavior, it's more than just 'pull yourself up by your ideological bootstraps'. It's easy to say "just do it" when you've never been in an environment that subtly discounts your contributions, no matter how good they are. It's so irritating that not being gregarious is called mousey, because it's definitely being stated as a knock. As if people can't make excellent contributions without yelling the loudest. I'm not a woman, and I'm not a minority, but being around my wife (an extremely intelligent, introverted engineer), it's easy to watch the implicit privilege that men use when relating to her. It's easy for them to steal her ideas. She is constantly, constantly challenged by every young man with something to prove, no matter how right she is, no matter how much experience she has in the matter ("Are you sure? Why don't we do it this way?"). It's downright exhausting. If she calls someone out on it, men think of her as "a bitch". If I point it out to them, they often say things like, "Oh wow, I didn't realize I was doing that". Or, they say something defensive like, "Why can't she stand up for herself?" Sorry for the rant, but this logic is so defeating for actually creating a positive workplace that encourages contributions from everyone, not just 24 year old Messiah-in-training.
- brador 12y ago
  In a meeting time is limited. Are you suggesting everyone wait around while she finishes her thought when another person could say it quicker? What your wife needs is not someone white knighting for her (you or this article). She needs to take lessons in assertiveness to build her confidence so she can get her views across and not be ignored from basics like a weak voice or poor posture. It's not rocket science and it's not a huge male conspiracy against women. What is true is women are less likely to be assertive, in life and in the workplace. And that can be fixed. It just won't be easy.
  - notacoward 12y ago
    "Could say it quicker" is an assumption that's part of the problem.
  - 12y ago
goldsam 12y ago
I think the article kind of addresses this point when talking about 1) the overwhelming frequency which this happens to women over men and 2) the negative perception of women who do voice their opinion. In a lot of ways not speaking up means protecting yourself from negative perception in the workplace.
ncallaway 12y ago
> Speak up, run with ideas, contribute. If you're gonna be mousey you're gonna get run over. Male or female. Not only do women face more adversity in this area than men, but you're also writing-off valuable contributions from entire personality types. What if someone in your org has information that is useful that doesn't get shared because they aren't comfortable in the meeting setting you outlined? Also, think of the talent that you're not able to acquire or retain because this is how meetings are run. I, for one, probably wouldn't stay in such an environment for long.
- brador 12y ago
  > they aren't comfortable in the meeting setting you outlined I'm not sure I understand you here, in what ways could they be uncomfortable?
  - ncallaway 12y ago
    Not all personality types thrive in the meeting environment you've outlined. The environment I'm envisioning based on what you've said is one where interruptions are the norm, you must be willing to talk over people to get speaking time, and you must be very socially assertive with your ideas. I know many more-introverted people who wouldn't be comfortable in that environment. I know several talented engineers that wouldn't contribute ideas in that sort of environment. And I, myself, would probably leave a company if that sort of meeting was in the company's culture.
    - brador 12y ago
      > Not all personality types thrive in the meeting environment you've outlined I agree. But if the employees want to thrive in a workplace that has such environments then they need to compete or leave for a more suitable environment. Complaining that it's because of X and Y with anecdotal evidence and proposing solutions that slow down idea flow doesn't help anyone.
fallinghawks 12y ago
It seems to me, in my unscientific personal experience, that men are much more likely to interrupt, and when interrupted, they have a rather amazing ability to keep talking through/over the interrupter even if the interrupter continues. IMO women are more attuned to listening and will stop speaking because they are interested in hearing what the other person has to say. I've seen many "conversations" where two men are just talking simultaneously, nobody can understand what's being said, and whoever keeps talking longer is the one who prevails.
vacri 12y ago
I'm a 6'6"/198cm man with broad shoulders and a very deep voice. And yet I constantly get talked over by people, so I know what it's like. If you plough on, you're considered the interrupting arsehole. I've had times when I've been halfway through my second or third sentence and people just start talking over me, and when I plough on to finish my thought, I get the looks like I'm the problem. I've had the same thing happen when I've tried to recover an idea that I introduced but someone else took and ran with. You call it 'being mousey', but it's not about being timid - there are social effects in play here, and it's often not worth the social cost to 'power through'. Edit: thinking further, I think a part of it is upbringing. I was raised to believe that interrupting people while they're speaking is rude. The people who talk over others are generally the same people; they seem to have had upbringings where conversations were more free-for-all, fight to make yourself heard. I'm not sure, just seems to fit.

by brador 12y ago

frandroid 12y ago

But you do understand that men face this hurdle much less in the first place?

ebiester 12y ago

Ah, but the woman will be negatively perceived for that action. If even powerful women speak less consciously because of negative reactions, there might just be more than smoke. What if we started believing women when they tell us their experiences?

brador 12y ago
> What if we started believing women when they tell us their experiences? I have a ratio of around 1:10 female:male from my tech staff. I have not seen this "powerful women speak less consciously because of negative reactions" from women any more or less than I see in men. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, I am saying it's natural for variation to exist and it's not exclusive to women. But whatever, keep pushing that narrative. It hasn't worked in 12 months, but maybe today eh.
- ebiester 12y ago
  Have you asked them, and listened rather than dismiss what they say? I have. I am not just pushing narrative here.

emsy 12y ago

I think it's not so easy, unfortunately. A while ago I read an article that woman who are eager to argue in business are perceived as bitchy, while men with the same eagerness were perceived as ambitious (by both men and women). In my experience, there are many such subtle discriminations that makes it hard for women to speak up.

jmagoon 12y ago

The women didn't "allow" anything. They began to speak and their ideas were finished by men, with the rest of the meeting nodding along with them. When there's a female minority and an implicit cultural approval for this type of behavior, it's more than just 'pull yourself up by your ideological bootstraps'. It's easy to say "just do it" when you've never been in an environment that subtly discounts your contributions, no matter how good they are. It's so irritating that not being gregarious is called mousey, because it's definitely being stated as a knock. As if people can't make excellent contributions without yelling the loudest. I'm not a woman, and I'm not a minority, but being around my wife (an extremely intelligent, introverted engineer), it's easy to watch the implicit privilege that men use when relating to her. It's easy for them to steal her ideas. She is constantly, constantly challenged by every young man with something to prove, no matter how right she is, no matter how much experience she has in the matter ("Are you sure? Why don't we do it this way?"). It's downright exhausting. If she calls someone out on it, men think of her as "a bitch". If I point it out to them, they often say things like, "Oh wow, I didn't realize I was doing that". Or, they say something defensive like, "Why can't she stand up for herself?" Sorry for the rant, but this logic is so defeating for actually creating a positive workplace that encourages contributions from everyone, not just 24 year old Messiah-in-training.

brador 12y ago
In a meeting time is limited. Are you suggesting everyone wait around while she finishes her thought when another person could say it quicker? What your wife needs is not someone white knighting for her (you or this article). She needs to take lessons in assertiveness to build her confidence so she can get her views across and not be ignored from basics like a weak voice or poor posture. It's not rocket science and it's not a huge male conspiracy against women. What is true is women are less likely to be assertive, in life and in the workplace. And that can be fixed. It just won't be easy.
- notacoward 12y ago
  "Could say it quicker" is an assumption that's part of the problem.
- 12y ago

goldsam 12y ago

I think the article kind of addresses this point when talking about 1) the overwhelming frequency which this happens to women over men and 2) the negative perception of women who do voice their opinion. In a lot of ways not speaking up means protecting yourself from negative perception in the workplace.

ncallaway 12y ago

> Speak up, run with ideas, contribute. If you're gonna be mousey you're gonna get run over. Male or female. Not only do women face more adversity in this area than men, but you're also writing-off valuable contributions from entire personality types. What if someone in your org has information that is useful that doesn't get shared because they aren't comfortable in the meeting setting you outlined? Also, think of the talent that you're not able to acquire or retain because this is how meetings are run. I, for one, probably wouldn't stay in such an environment for long.

brador 12y ago
> they aren't comfortable in the meeting setting you outlined I'm not sure I understand you here, in what ways could they be uncomfortable?
- ncallaway 12y ago
  Not all personality types thrive in the meeting environment you've outlined. The environment I'm envisioning based on what you've said is one where interruptions are the norm, you must be willing to talk over people to get speaking time, and you must be very socially assertive with your ideas. I know many more-introverted people who wouldn't be comfortable in that environment. I know several talented engineers that wouldn't contribute ideas in that sort of environment. And I, myself, would probably leave a company if that sort of meeting was in the company's culture.
  - brador 12y ago
    > Not all personality types thrive in the meeting environment you've outlined I agree. But if the employees want to thrive in a workplace that has such environments then they need to compete or leave for a more suitable environment. Complaining that it's because of X and Y with anecdotal evidence and proposing solutions that slow down idea flow doesn't help anyone.

fallinghawks 12y ago

It seems to me, in my unscientific personal experience, that men are much more likely to interrupt, and when interrupted, they have a rather amazing ability to keep talking through/over the interrupter even if the interrupter continues. IMO women are more attuned to listening and will stop speaking because they are interested in hearing what the other person has to say. I've seen many "conversations" where two men are just talking simultaneously, nobody can understand what's being said, and whoever keeps talking longer is the one who prevails.

vacri 12y ago

I'm a 6'6"/198cm man with broad shoulders and a very deep voice. And yet I constantly get talked over by people, so I know what it's like. If you plough on, you're considered the interrupting arsehole. I've had times when I've been halfway through my second or third sentence and people just start talking over me, and when I plough on to finish my thought, I get the looks like I'm the problem. I've had the same thing happen when I've tried to recover an idea that I introduced but someone else took and ran with. You call it 'being mousey', but it's not about being timid - there are social effects in play here, and it's often not worth the social cost to 'power through'. Edit: thinking further, I think a part of it is upbringing. I was raised to believe that interrupting people while they're speaking is rude. The people who talk over others are generally the same people; they seem to have had upbringings where conversations were more free-for-all, fight to make yourself heard. I'm not sure, just seems to fit.