5 ms·

"Systemic" generally means that something arises out of the interaction of parts, not simply being a result of the sum of those parts individually. At least, th

"Systemic" generally means that something arises out of the interaction of parts, not simply being a result of the sum of those parts individually. At least, that's how I use it.

yummyfajitas 12y ago
If that's the case, then the oppression of nerds (to take an example from current events) certainly qualifies as systemic - it's definitely not based on any individual part of being a nerd. Yet many people have disputed this conclusion in the strongest terms. Does this mean that more definitions of "systemic" are floating around?
- misuba 12y ago
  Oh, what happens to nerds is definitely systemic in this exact sense. I'd bet the arguments you're seeing are not disputing whether what's happening to nerds is systemic; they're disputing whether it's oppression.
blackbagboys 12y ago
He knows what systemic means in this context. yummyfajitas's shtick is to try to dismiss or derail any discussion of social issues by repeatedly posing disingenuous semantic questions
- yummyfajitas 12y ago
  Or maybe I'm trying to understand. Discussions like this involve a lot of jargon, non-standard definitions and hidden (or nonexistent?) moral assumptions. I do this in all sorts of discussions when I don't understand the terms. "We want to increase engagement." "How do you define engagement?" "We want the estimator to be robust." "How do you define robust?" You can call a request for clarification of terms "derailing" (or just flag me and call me racist, as many people do), but that makes it look like you simply want to avoid clarity. Asking for clear statements of claims and definitions of terms isn't derailing - it's simply good practice if your goal is understanding.
  - dalke 12y ago
    Says the person who thinks that "Disputing definitions is pointless", and implies that definition_yummyfajitas is no worse than any other definition.
    - yummyfajitas 12y ago
      Asking what a person means when they use a word is not pointless - it's the only way to understand what they believe about the world. If you say "sound" and precisely define it as "auditory perceptions by a human", I then understand what you mean when you say "a tree falls in the forest and makes no sound". If you don't define "sound", then I might think you mean "a tree falling in the forest creates no vibrations in the air". In contrast, using the word "vibrations" or "fred" instead of "sound" doesn't change the physical behavior of the air. That's why disputing definitions is pointless.
      - dalke 12y ago
        Okay, what do you think "systemic" means? What does "pointless" mean to you? What's a "vibration"? Are you a 'person' and how can I tell? You just used all those words, and I would like you to educate me.
        yummyfajitas 12y ago
        Pointless means we'll achieve nothing by doing it. I don't know what "systemic" means which is why I asked. A vibration is an oscillation in a medium.
  - pron 12y ago
    Come on, fajitas, enough. I mean, you're not really "trying to understand", now are you? Last time we had a similar discussion, I told you that you should read some books/articles. Clearly you haven't. Your comments are no different from someone going to a graduate physics symposium and telling people, "Why are you using all this jargon? Tunneling? That means digging a tunnel through rock! And why are you using 'spin' and 'color' wrong? Please, I just want to understand!" Well, just like Quantum Physics can't be explained in full in a HN comment, so can't history, economy, social work. So please. Either learn a little bit more about the subject, understand that the explanations you are given here are just small snippets of a much larger field of study (and reality), accept that you might not fully understand the terms, or stop making these juvenile comments over and over.
lsiebert 12y ago
System: a set of interacting or interdependent components forming an integrated whole. I meant systemic in the sense of our society being a system.

"Systemic" generally means that something arises out of the interaction of parts, not simply being a result of the sum of those parts individually. At least, that's how I use it.

yummyfajitas 12y ago

If that's the case, then the oppression of nerds (to take an example from current events) certainly qualifies as systemic - it's definitely not based on any individual part of being a nerd. Yet many people have disputed this conclusion in the strongest terms. Does this mean that more definitions of "systemic" are floating around?

misuba 12y ago
Oh, what happens to nerds is definitely systemic in this exact sense. I'd bet the arguments you're seeing are not disputing whether what's happening to nerds is systemic; they're disputing whether it's oppression.

blackbagboys 12y ago

He knows what systemic means in this context. yummyfajitas's shtick is to try to dismiss or derail any discussion of social issues by repeatedly posing disingenuous semantic questions

yummyfajitas 12y ago
Or maybe I'm trying to understand. Discussions like this involve a lot of jargon, non-standard definitions and hidden (or nonexistent?) moral assumptions. I do this in all sorts of discussions when I don't understand the terms. "We want to increase engagement." "How do you define engagement?" "We want the estimator to be robust." "How do you define robust?" You can call a request for clarification of terms "derailing" (or just flag me and call me racist, as many people do), but that makes it look like you simply want to avoid clarity. Asking for clear statements of claims and definitions of terms isn't derailing - it's simply good practice if your goal is understanding.
- dalke 12y ago
  Says the person who thinks that "Disputing definitions is pointless", and implies that definition_yummyfajitas is no worse than any other definition.
  - yummyfajitas 12y ago
    Asking what a person means when they use a word is not pointless - it's the only way to understand what they believe about the world. If you say "sound" and precisely define it as "auditory perceptions by a human", I then understand what you mean when you say "a tree falls in the forest and makes no sound". If you don't define "sound", then I might think you mean "a tree falling in the forest creates no vibrations in the air". In contrast, using the word "vibrations" or "fred" instead of "sound" doesn't change the physical behavior of the air. That's why disputing definitions is pointless.
    - dalke 12y ago
      Okay, what do you think "systemic" means? What does "pointless" mean to you? What's a "vibration"? Are you a 'person' and how can I tell? You just used all those words, and I would like you to educate me.
      - yummyfajitas 12y ago
        Pointless means we'll achieve nothing by doing it. I don't know what "systemic" means which is why I asked. A vibration is an oscillation in a medium.
- pron 12y ago
  Come on, fajitas, enough. I mean, you're not really "trying to understand", now are you? Last time we had a similar discussion, I told you that you should read some books/articles. Clearly you haven't. Your comments are no different from someone going to a graduate physics symposium and telling people, "Why are you using all this jargon? Tunneling? That means digging a tunnel through rock! And why are you using 'spin' and 'color' wrong? Please, I just want to understand!" Well, just like Quantum Physics can't be explained in full in a HN comment, so can't history, economy, social work. So please. Either learn a little bit more about the subject, understand that the explanations you are given here are just small snippets of a much larger field of study (and reality), accept that you might not fully understand the terms, or stop making these juvenile comments over and over.

lsiebert 12y ago

System: a set of interacting or interdependent components forming an integrated whole. I meant systemic in the sense of our society being a system.