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That quote was referring to racist homeowners who were planning to leave when Asian Americans moved in: --- "The same issue affected Asian-Americans. When pro

by yzzxy 12y ago

That quote was referring to racist homeowners who were planning to leave when Asian Americans moved in: --- "The same issue affected Asian-Americans. When progressive suburban developer Joseph Eichler’s company sold a home in 1954 to an Asian-American family in Palo Alto, word spread through the neighborhood and five homeowners approached the company demanding immediate refunds. 'Get out,' Eichler’s business partner, Jim San Jule, told the white homeowners. 'We don’t even want people like you in our subdivisions.'" --- Segregation is an insidious evil that can exacerbate problems such as violence and poverty for generations after legal controls or social pressures disappear. See: the entire city of Chicago and the issues it has faced. "Seperate but equal" was abandoned by SCOTUS decades ago. Maybe it's time for you to catch up.

mc32 12y ago
In addition you have the reverse now happening where parents seek out Asian neighborhoods for the better schools and a sharp focus on education.
sliverstorm 12y ago
I'm in favor of desgregation, but if John Homeowner wants to flee the neighborhood (which is what enlightenedfool describes), that is his choice. It is not our right to tell him who he must live with.
yummyfajitas 12y ago
Segregation is using threats of violence to force people to live separately. "Separate but equal" was enforced at the point of a gun. The OP explicitly disavowed that. He's describing voluntary movement. For example, the tendency of Mexicans to live near each other, or for Indian immigrants to the US to live in Jersey City or Edison. Enlightenedfool's point is that most people, including very pleasant people, harbor tribalist feelings. And these tribalist feelings inform consumption choices. For example, the bad romantic comedies my girlfriend watches have a disproportionate number of black people in them - eventually google informed me that "African American Comedy" is a genre. A steelman of enlightenedfool's point might note the condemnation of white people making consumption choices based on tribalism, and ask if a black woman preferring to watch movies with Meagan Good and Taraji P. Henson rather than Kate Hudson and Jennifer Aniston deserves similar condemnation.
- kingkawn 12y ago
  If people voluntarily ghettoize it does not mean the ghetto is not real, it means that it's so real that it doesn't need to be enforced anymore.
- dalke 12y ago
  It looks like you are making a definitional statement that 'segregation' is only possible due to 'threats of violence'. If so, this is overly narrow. There are others ways to get segregation. Quoting from Wikipedia: > Housing segregation traditionally has been the practice of denying African American or other minority groups equal access to housing through the process of misinformation, denial of realty and financing services, and racial steering. Misinformation can take the form of realtors or landlords not giving a certain ethnic group, or race, an accurate portrayal of available units. Racial steering typically occurs when realtors or landlords steer European Americans to available units in white communities, and African Americans to black or racially mixed communities. Generally, racial steering involves misinformation on the part of the realtor or landlord as well, because they will not tell the African Americans or other minorities about the available units in the European American communities. That used information asymmetry, not threats of violence, to steer 'voluntary movement' and end up with a higher amount of segregation than would have occurred if all parties were equally informed. While illegal, these forms of housing segregation still exist: see http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-obtains-120000-settlement-discrimination-lawsuit-against-chicago-area http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-obtains-120... as an example. The quote "Unlawful steering by real estate agents frustrates the rights of people to make fully informed housing choices and perpetuates segregated housing patterns" shows that these non-violent policies are directly tied to segregation.
  - yummyfajitas 12y ago
    Disputing definitions is pointless. Obviously voluntary housing choices are segregation_dalke but not segregation_fajitas. Now lets get back to discussing objective reality, and remember that words are merely convenient shorthands for that reality. http://lesswrong.com/lw/np/disputing_definitions/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/np/disputing_definitions/ The point I was making: Yzzxy was arguing against a straw man, acting as if enlightenedfool advocated in favor of using violence to confine certain groups to certain regions ("separate but equal"). Enlightenedfool argued no such thing. Now if you really want to argue against consumption choices based on tribalist preferences, make that argument. Also be wary of the fallacy of expanding a definition and then expecting all conclusions drawn from the narrow definition to also hold for the wide one - I've noticed when people dispute definitions on topics like this, that fallacy often follows.

by yzzxy 12y ago

mc32 12y ago

In addition you have the reverse now happening where parents seek out Asian neighborhoods for the better schools and a sharp focus on education.

sliverstorm 12y ago

I'm in favor of desgregation, but if John Homeowner wants to flee the neighborhood (which is what enlightenedfool describes), that is his choice. It is not our right to tell him who he must live with.

yummyfajitas 12y ago

Segregation is using threats of violence to force people to live separately. "Separate but equal" was enforced at the point of a gun. The OP explicitly disavowed that. He's describing voluntary movement. For example, the tendency of Mexicans to live near each other, or for Indian immigrants to the US to live in Jersey City or Edison. Enlightenedfool's point is that most people, including very pleasant people, harbor tribalist feelings. And these tribalist feelings inform consumption choices. For example, the bad romantic comedies my girlfriend watches have a disproportionate number of black people in them - eventually google informed me that "African American Comedy" is a genre. A steelman of enlightenedfool's point might note the condemnation of white people making consumption choices based on tribalism, and ask if a black woman preferring to watch movies with Meagan Good and Taraji P. Henson rather than Kate Hudson and Jennifer Aniston deserves similar condemnation.

kingkawn 12y ago
If people voluntarily ghettoize it does not mean the ghetto is not real, it means that it's so real that it doesn't need to be enforced anymore.
dalke 12y ago
It looks like you are making a definitional statement that 'segregation' is only possible due to 'threats of violence'. If so, this is overly narrow. There are others ways to get segregation. Quoting from Wikipedia: > Housing segregation traditionally has been the practice of denying African American or other minority groups equal access to housing through the process of misinformation, denial of realty and financing services, and racial steering. Misinformation can take the form of realtors or landlords not giving a certain ethnic group, or race, an accurate portrayal of available units. Racial steering typically occurs when realtors or landlords steer European Americans to available units in white communities, and African Americans to black or racially mixed communities. Generally, racial steering involves misinformation on the part of the realtor or landlord as well, because they will not tell the African Americans or other minorities about the available units in the European American communities. That used information asymmetry, not threats of violence, to steer 'voluntary movement' and end up with a higher amount of segregation than would have occurred if all parties were equally informed. While illegal, these forms of housing segregation still exist: see http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-obtains-120000-settlement-discrimination-lawsuit-against-chicago-area http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-obtains-120... as an example. The quote "Unlawful steering by real estate agents frustrates the rights of people to make fully informed housing choices and perpetuates segregated housing patterns" shows that these non-violent policies are directly tied to segregation.
- yummyfajitas 12y ago
  Disputing definitions is pointless. Obviously voluntary housing choices are segregation_dalke but not segregation_fajitas. Now lets get back to discussing objective reality, and remember that words are merely convenient shorthands for that reality. http://lesswrong.com/lw/np/disputing_definitions/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/np/disputing_definitions/ The point I was making: Yzzxy was arguing against a straw man, acting as if enlightenedfool advocated in favor of using violence to confine certain groups to certain regions ("separate but equal"). Enlightenedfool argued no such thing. Now if you really want to argue against consumption choices based on tribalist preferences, make that argument. Also be wary of the fallacy of expanding a definition and then expecting all conclusions drawn from the narrow definition to also hold for the wide one - I've noticed when people dispute definitions on topics like this, that fallacy often follows.