7 ms·
This is some excellent long form journalism on how systemic issues have created an absurd divide between Palo Alto and East Palo Alto.
by lsiebert 12y ago
This is some excellent long form journalism on how systemic issues have created an absurd divide between Palo Alto and East Palo Alto.
- yummyfajitas 12y agoWhat does "systemic" mean? How can I determine whether an issue is or is not "systemic"?
- afarrell 12y ago"Systemic" generally means that something arises out of the interaction of parts, not simply being a result of the sum of those parts individually. At least, that's how I use it.
- yummyfajitas 12y agoIf that's the case, then the oppression of nerds (to take an example from current events) certainly qualifies as systemic - it's definitely not based on any individual part of being a nerd. Yet many people have disputed this conclusion in the strongest terms. Does this mean that more definitions of "systemic" are floating around?
- misuba 12y agoOh, what happens to nerds is definitely systemic in this exact sense. I'd bet the arguments you're seeing are not disputing whether what's happening to nerds is systemic; they're disputing whether it's oppression.
- blackbagboys 12y agoHe knows what systemic means in this context. yummyfajitas's shtick is to try to dismiss or derail any discussion of social issues by repeatedly posing disingenuous semantic questions
- yummyfajitas 12y agoOr maybe I'm trying to understand. Discussions like this involve a lot of jargon, non-standard definitions and hidden (or nonexistent?) moral assumptions. I do this in all sorts of discussions when I don't understand the terms. "We want to increase engagement." "How do you define engagement?" "We want the estimator to be robust." "How do you define robust?" You can call a request for clarification of terms "derailing" (or just flag me and call me racist, as many people do), but that makes it look like you simply want to avoid clarity. Asking for clear statements of claims and definitions of terms isn't derailing - it's simply good practice if your goal is understanding.
- dalke 12y agoSays the person who thinks that "Disputing definitions is pointless", and implies that definition_yummyfajitas is no worse than any other definition.
- yummyfajitas 12y agoAsking what a person means when they use a word is not pointless - it's the only way to understand what they believe about the world. If you say "sound" and precisely define it as "auditory perceptions by a human", I then understand what you mean when you say "a tree falls in the forest and makes no sound". If you don't define "sound", then I might think you mean "a tree falling in the forest creates no vibrations in the air". In contrast, using the word "vibrations" or "fred" instead of "sound" doesn't change the physical behavior of the air. That's why disputing definitions is pointless.
- dalke 12y agoOkay, what do you think "systemic" means? What does "pointless" mean to you? What's a "vibration"? Are you a 'person' and how can I tell? You just used all those words, and I would like you to educate me.
- 12y ago
- lsiebert 12y agoSystem: a set of interacting or interdependent components forming an integrated whole. I meant systemic in the sense of our society being a system.
- hnriot 12y agoit simply means the opposite of local and really I think that's what the parent comment meant. The issues in EPA are local and not systemic.
- jarsin 12y agothat depends on what the definition of "is" is...
- tlb 12y agoYou can determine that an issue is systemic when any solution would require major changes all through society. Other classes of issues include "budgetary", "political", "legal", and "personnel". The way you approach each class is different. Although most issues that cross a public official's desk are not systemic, the most publicly debated ones are. That may explain your semantic fatigue around the word.