5 ms·

High level question: Why do we need to care about such things? Or, what's wrong with just HTML and just some simple usage of old CSS3 or whatever it was? Tha

by graycat 12y ago

High level question: Why do we need to care about such things? Or, what's wrong with just HTML and just some simple usage of old CSS3 or whatever it was? That is, why do Web pages need to be so complicated? Since we have decades of word whacking software without such features, why do we need such features now? My Web pages are all really simple: Each is 800 pixels wide, with just a little use of CSS and then nearly all just HTML, with the layout using tables. I have yet to write a single line of JavaScript although Microsoft's ASP.NET writes a little for me. To me, my Web pages look quite functional, usable, easy to understand and use, etc. For the need for a lot more, I don't get it and worse: On the Internet I see a lot of really complicated Web pages that jump around while loading and then again when I use my mouse to put the page into the focus and use the scroll wheel on the mouse to scroll the page. I don't like the jumping around. Why go to the trouble to build such complicated Web pages? I'm not criticizing but trying to learn and inviting answers. Why bother? HTML was just another text markup language, and nice, and CSS helped a little. Isn't that enough? I learned some HTML, and it was fine, and now I want to move on and just use it and not stop here and make a career out of adding unbounded complexity. Shouldn't things be as simple as possible but not simpler? Why be so complicated? To me, the complicated Web pages I see are a disaster, slow down my computer, etc. -- I'd much rather have just simple Web pages with old HTML, only simple CSS, and little or no JavaScript.

rrrx3 12y ago
Sorry, can't and won't get onboard with this. It's not 1995 anymore. Join the rest of us in the 21st century with pages that are functional and attractive.
- jenscow 12y ago
  and maintainable.
  - graycat 12y ago
    It sounds like you have in mind a set of likely changes and have designed the HTML, CSS, and JavaScript to make the changes in that set relatively easy. Okay. For my Web pages, I questioned if that candle was worth a match. Or another such analogy goes, "Don't build a brick outhouse.". Or as I wrote, as simple as possible but not simpler. It's just a Web page! But that's the way I've been thinking and posted here to see where people differ in their thinking. One possible issue is changing where the text, pictures, video clips, ads, etc. are depending on the number of pixels or whatever in the user's screen, browser window, etc. For my pages, I just decided not to do that -- I just didn't see any very big reason to do that. Or, if a user gets used to my Web pages, then they will still have the same layout -- text, text boxes, URLs, ads, links to Help, etc. on any other screen, with any other browser, etc. Is it really important to change what the page looks like depending on the user's screen size? Or, if we know what text, ads, text boxes, etc. we want, can't we just display it, basically one way for everyone? Why so important to change? As a programmer it's more work for me, and as a user I just want it simple.
jordanroher 12y ago
Because going to all this trouble has distinct advantages. - With media queries in CSS my page can be responsive, scaling its size and content from 320px smartphones to multi-monitor desktops. I don't have to build and maintain multiple pages or specifically target individual devices. - Using semantic tags makes it simpler for search engines to index your content and for visually impaired people to use screen readers and understand it. - With advanced JavaScript I can reduce the friction of multi-page forms. AJAX lets us do instant checks on data against a remote database without loading the rest of the layout. Google helpfully suggests the rest of your query as you type. Of course, it's not hard to go overboard with modern web tech, and these features can introduce bugs and alienate users running old hardware and software. But such is the price of progress.
- graycat 12y ago
  > - With media queries in CSS my page can be responsive, scaling its size and content from 320px smartphones to multi-monitor desktops. I guess I just don't want my pages to change, just want them to look the same. On a big screen on a desktop computer, one of my pages is still just 800 pixels wide -- that's all I need for what I'm trying to display to the user. I'm not trying to take up his whole screen. I see what from the user side Google has done with AJAX -- it's nice. But Google has nearly infinite money and wants the most polished UI/UX they can get. But there's some irony here: In most respects, the Google screens are quite simple, and nothing "jumps around" either during loading or usage. And the loading is fast. For sending one of my screens, I need send only 400,000 bits; so, my screens should send and load quickly. I'll consider semantic tags. Thanks. Yes, multi-page forms could be a bummer; each of my forms fits easily on just one page. But my UI is just dirt simple for the user. For > old hardware and software I'm not sure what I'm running is too old to matter. But if there are such users, then maybe they will like my pages because I suspect that the pages will look fine in any browser up to date as of 5, maybe 10, years ago. > It's not hard to go overboard with modern web tech That's an impression I got. I've had a related point: Let's compare, say, the Microsoft Word UI and Web page UIs of, say, 10 years ago. Then, the Word UI can take weeks to master, for just that one program, more for Excel, more for Outlook (I finally found how to increase the font sizes, etc. in Outlook), while there were tens of million of Web sites 1+ billion people could use right away. Why? Because all the sites were simple and similar. Lesson: If Web programming offers as much opportunity for unique UIs, then we could lose the big advantage of the Web that anyone can use any page quickly. If that happens, then I want to vote with the majority and let others have unique UIs.
saraid216 12y ago
> Why bother? You're basically asking why half of us bother doing our jobs. It's not that you're criticizing; it's that you're cheerfully insulting people while pretending to be inquisitive about something you have no interest in learning about. You don't care about this? That's great. Don't care. The people who built it aren't asking you to care.
- graycat 12y ago
  It's not personal; it's just Web page coding. I am "interested in learning", and that's exactly why I'm asking. If you are writing complicated code for Web pages, then maybe you have some reasons wby -- I was asking for your reasons. If such Web page functionality is your job, then the question would be, why? My Web pages at 800 pixels wide should look fine on any screen I can think of, although maybe on some really small screens some use of horizontal scroll bars might be needed. On a large screen on a desktop computer, just see all 800 pixels at once, and still my Web pages don't take up much room on the screen; I'm not trying to fill the screen and I'm guessing that that's a UX advantage.
  - snlacks 12y ago
    As a front end developer, I think it is easier and more maintainable to use styles for the appearance, and JavaScript for the behavior... That being said, I find the complexity of many designs (CSS or JS driven) more distracting to users. Now, for marketing sites, built by designers, CSS is likely going to be much better for performance. If the JS works as intended. Designers benefit from not having to be focused on programming.
    - graycat 12y ago
      > JavaScript for the behavior.. What "behavior"? Are you implementing an on screen calculator, some word whacking software, the game of Nim, chess, checkers, a drawing program using some HTML5 scalable vector graphics (SVG), all in JS on the client side? Okay.
  - ziles88 12y ago
kaishiro 12y ago
You keep bringing up your sites that seem to work great everywhere. Care to share one?
- graycat 12y ago
  So far the sites are not connected to the Internet. When they are, I will eagerly announce on HN.
- graycat 12y ago
  That my Web pages should work nearly everywhere is not a big deal. Instead, it's simple. Except for a little JavaScript Microsoft writes for me, I'm just using some simple, old HTML with a little CSS. What goes to the client is, for the Web, just dirt simple. Then each Web page is exactly 800 pixels wide, small screen, big screen, small window, big window, Internet Explorer, Firefox, Chrome, etc., all the same exactly 800 pixels wide, period. There are both vertical and horizontal scroll bars. The content of the pages is really simple, basically just some text, a simple PNG image, some links as at the top of these pages at HN, some simple, standard HTML controls, and nothing else. As I recall, the fonts are all 35 pixels high, that is, relatively large fonts. All the layout is with just HTML tables -- I'm not asking the Web browser to position or scale anything. No roll overs, pull downs, pop-ups, icons -- HN doesn't have such either. So, on any browser window with at least 800 pixels of width, my Web pages should look fine; some users may want to use some magnification option in their Web browser -- I'm not going to program that logic. Simple. Dirt simple. No doubt. That my Web pages take up only 800 pixels of width on some workstation screen 4000 pixels wide is okay with me. If my site has any value, then it's not in fancy HTML, CSS, or JavaScript. Same for HN. I can understand that for a lot of sites, there is client side JavaScript that keeps looking at the size of the browser window and walks some tree of the document object model or some such and dynamically positions text, ads, images, video windows, etc. That could get complicated on one computer and much worse on a billion computers from smartphones to workstations. For solving that problem, I didn't figure out how or even attack it. If you are working on such a problem, you have my sympathy; if you get a good solution, you have my congratulations. What I'm doing is dirt simple; no doubt you could have done it easily except for just one issue: Do you want such a simple Web page? HN does. Some other sites do. So do I. But, yes, when my site goes live, I'll eagerly announce on HN. Then you can all say that my Web pages look like they were designed by 5 year old child in 1995 in 15 minutes after stealing five beers from his parents' refrigerator -- will be about right. Even more likely, by a drunk, baby T Rex. I'm not trying to build a brick outhouse or use a $3 million Ferrari to get six loaves of bread and three gallons of milk. Instead, simple as possible but not simpler.
slang800 12y ago
I certainly agree that some (probably most?) web pages have way more UI logic than they need to present the information to the user. Loading animations, back-to-top buttons, fixed position headers, social-share bars, and so many more UI components are totally unnecessary. However CSS does have an important place even in the most basic presentation of information: proper styling can vastly improve readability. Especially on mobile devices where the layout must change to fit the device and a fixed 800px is totally unacceptable. This adaptation to fit the device is what sets webpages apart from more rigidity constrained types of documents. Also, there's some degree of artistic expression in a nicely designed webpage... It's beside the point of why extensive styling capabilities are "needed", but that's part of why they're so popular.
- graycat 12y ago
  > Especially on mobile devices where the layout must change to fit the device and a fixed 800px is totally unacceptable. Why? Why should "the layout ... fit the device" -- I'm not trying to fill the user's screen; I don't want to fill the user's screen. The smallest iPhone screen size I see is 320 × 480 pixels. With the horizontal scroll bars, the 320 pixels would be usable, and if the Web browser would permit using the 480 pixels for the 800 pixel width of my pages, then that would be even better. Some of the other iPhone resolutions are 750 × 1334, 1242 × 2208, and 1080 × 1920 pixels, and there my pages 800 pixels wide should look nearly perfect. What's the problem? I'm not seeing a problem? I'm trying to learn. Where am I going wrong? What am I not seeing?
  - slang800 12y ago
    > With the horizontal scroll bars, the 320 pixels would be usable Try reading an article while operating a horizontal scrollbar... it's a horrible experience because every line requires you to scroll from left to right, and then back to the left. Also, your 800px page will still have a horizontal scrollbar on those devices because they're rendered at 2-3x, making the effective pixel-width of an iPhone 300px-400px. They could just zoom out really far and then use a magnifying glass to read it... thanks to the high resolution that would be possible, but it still wouldn't be pleasant. > I'm trying to learn. Where am I going wrong? What am I not seeing? Try visiting your site on a smartphone, a TV, a tablet, etc... you'll see the issue.
gentle-one 12y ago
You definitely don't create website on a professional level. If you want to build hobby websites with a fixed width of 800px as it is 1995... that's up to you. Complicated webpages don't have to be slow... if you landed on such one, then you've landed on a website created by an amateur.

by graycat 12y ago

rrrx3 12y ago

Sorry, can't and won't get onboard with this. It's not 1995 anymore. Join the rest of us in the 21st century with pages that are functional and attractive.

jenscow 12y ago
and maintainable.
- graycat 12y ago
  It sounds like you have in mind a set of likely changes and have designed the HTML, CSS, and JavaScript to make the changes in that set relatively easy. Okay. For my Web pages, I questioned if that candle was worth a match. Or another such analogy goes, "Don't build a brick outhouse.". Or as I wrote, as simple as possible but not simpler. It's just a Web page! But that's the way I've been thinking and posted here to see where people differ in their thinking. One possible issue is changing where the text, pictures, video clips, ads, etc. are depending on the number of pixels or whatever in the user's screen, browser window, etc. For my pages, I just decided not to do that -- I just didn't see any very big reason to do that. Or, if a user gets used to my Web pages, then they will still have the same layout -- text, text boxes, URLs, ads, links to Help, etc. on any other screen, with any other browser, etc. Is it really important to change what the page looks like depending on the user's screen size? Or, if we know what text, ads, text boxes, etc. we want, can't we just display it, basically one way for everyone? Why so important to change? As a programmer it's more work for me, and as a user I just want it simple.

jordanroher 12y ago

Because going to all this trouble has distinct advantages. - With media queries in CSS my page can be responsive, scaling its size and content from 320px smartphones to multi-monitor desktops. I don't have to build and maintain multiple pages or specifically target individual devices. - Using semantic tags makes it simpler for search engines to index your content and for visually impaired people to use screen readers and understand it. - With advanced JavaScript I can reduce the friction of multi-page forms. AJAX lets us do instant checks on data against a remote database without loading the rest of the layout. Google helpfully suggests the rest of your query as you type. Of course, it's not hard to go overboard with modern web tech, and these features can introduce bugs and alienate users running old hardware and software. But such is the price of progress.

graycat 12y ago
> - With media queries in CSS my page can be responsive, scaling its size and content from 320px smartphones to multi-monitor desktops. I guess I just don't want my pages to change, just want them to look the same. On a big screen on a desktop computer, one of my pages is still just 800 pixels wide -- that's all I need for what I'm trying to display to the user. I'm not trying to take up his whole screen. I see what from the user side Google has done with AJAX -- it's nice. But Google has nearly infinite money and wants the most polished UI/UX they can get. But there's some irony here: In most respects, the Google screens are quite simple, and nothing "jumps around" either during loading or usage. And the loading is fast. For sending one of my screens, I need send only 400,000 bits; so, my screens should send and load quickly. I'll consider semantic tags. Thanks. Yes, multi-page forms could be a bummer; each of my forms fits easily on just one page. But my UI is just dirt simple for the user. For > old hardware and software I'm not sure what I'm running is too old to matter. But if there are such users, then maybe they will like my pages because I suspect that the pages will look fine in any browser up to date as of 5, maybe 10, years ago. > It's not hard to go overboard with modern web tech That's an impression I got. I've had a related point: Let's compare, say, the Microsoft Word UI and Web page UIs of, say, 10 years ago. Then, the Word UI can take weeks to master, for just that one program, more for Excel, more for Outlook (I finally found how to increase the font sizes, etc. in Outlook), while there were tens of million of Web sites 1+ billion people could use right away. Why? Because all the sites were simple and similar. Lesson: If Web programming offers as much opportunity for unique UIs, then we could lose the big advantage of the Web that anyone can use any page quickly. If that happens, then I want to vote with the majority and let others have unique UIs.

saraid216 12y ago

> Why bother? You're basically asking why half of us bother doing our jobs. It's not that you're criticizing; it's that you're cheerfully insulting people while pretending to be inquisitive about something you have no interest in learning about. You don't care about this? That's great. Don't care. The people who built it aren't asking you to care.

graycat 12y ago
It's not personal; it's just Web page coding. I am "interested in learning", and that's exactly why I'm asking. If you are writing complicated code for Web pages, then maybe you have some reasons wby -- I was asking for your reasons. If such Web page functionality is your job, then the question would be, why? My Web pages at 800 pixels wide should look fine on any screen I can think of, although maybe on some really small screens some use of horizontal scroll bars might be needed. On a large screen on a desktop computer, just see all 800 pixels at once, and still my Web pages don't take up much room on the screen; I'm not trying to fill the screen and I'm guessing that that's a UX advantage.
- snlacks 12y ago
  As a front end developer, I think it is easier and more maintainable to use styles for the appearance, and JavaScript for the behavior... That being said, I find the complexity of many designs (CSS or JS driven) more distracting to users. Now, for marketing sites, built by designers, CSS is likely going to be much better for performance. If the JS works as intended. Designers benefit from not having to be focused on programming.
  - graycat 12y ago
    > JavaScript for the behavior.. What "behavior"? Are you implementing an on screen calculator, some word whacking software, the game of Nim, chess, checkers, a drawing program using some HTML5 scalable vector graphics (SVG), all in JS on the client side? Okay.
- ziles88 12y ago

kaishiro 12y ago

You keep bringing up your sites that seem to work great everywhere. Care to share one?

graycat 12y ago
So far the sites are not connected to the Internet. When they are, I will eagerly announce on HN.
graycat 12y ago
That my Web pages should work nearly everywhere is not a big deal. Instead, it's simple. Except for a little JavaScript Microsoft writes for me, I'm just using some simple, old HTML with a little CSS. What goes to the client is, for the Web, just dirt simple. Then each Web page is exactly 800 pixels wide, small screen, big screen, small window, big window, Internet Explorer, Firefox, Chrome, etc., all the same exactly 800 pixels wide, period. There are both vertical and horizontal scroll bars. The content of the pages is really simple, basically just some text, a simple PNG image, some links as at the top of these pages at HN, some simple, standard HTML controls, and nothing else. As I recall, the fonts are all 35 pixels high, that is, relatively large fonts. All the layout is with just HTML tables -- I'm not asking the Web browser to position or scale anything. No roll overs, pull downs, pop-ups, icons -- HN doesn't have such either. So, on any browser window with at least 800 pixels of width, my Web pages should look fine; some users may want to use some magnification option in their Web browser -- I'm not going to program that logic. Simple. Dirt simple. No doubt. That my Web pages take up only 800 pixels of width on some workstation screen 4000 pixels wide is okay with me. If my site has any value, then it's not in fancy HTML, CSS, or JavaScript. Same for HN. I can understand that for a lot of sites, there is client side JavaScript that keeps looking at the size of the browser window and walks some tree of the document object model or some such and dynamically positions text, ads, images, video windows, etc. That could get complicated on one computer and much worse on a billion computers from smartphones to workstations. For solving that problem, I didn't figure out how or even attack it. If you are working on such a problem, you have my sympathy; if you get a good solution, you have my congratulations. What I'm doing is dirt simple; no doubt you could have done it easily except for just one issue: Do you want such a simple Web page? HN does. Some other sites do. So do I. But, yes, when my site goes live, I'll eagerly announce on HN. Then you can all say that my Web pages look like they were designed by 5 year old child in 1995 in 15 minutes after stealing five beers from his parents' refrigerator -- will be about right. Even more likely, by a drunk, baby T Rex. I'm not trying to build a brick outhouse or use a $3 million Ferrari to get six loaves of bread and three gallons of milk. Instead, simple as possible but not simpler.

slang800 12y ago

I certainly agree that some (probably most?) web pages have way more UI logic than they need to present the information to the user. Loading animations, back-to-top buttons, fixed position headers, social-share bars, and so many more UI components are totally unnecessary. However CSS does have an important place even in the most basic presentation of information: proper styling can vastly improve readability. Especially on mobile devices where the layout must change to fit the device and a fixed 800px is totally unacceptable. This adaptation to fit the device is what sets webpages apart from more rigidity constrained types of documents. Also, there's some degree of artistic expression in a nicely designed webpage... It's beside the point of why extensive styling capabilities are "needed", but that's part of why they're so popular.

graycat 12y ago
> Especially on mobile devices where the layout must change to fit the device and a fixed 800px is totally unacceptable. Why? Why should "the layout ... fit the device" -- I'm not trying to fill the user's screen; I don't want to fill the user's screen. The smallest iPhone screen size I see is 320 × 480 pixels. With the horizontal scroll bars, the 320 pixels would be usable, and if the Web browser would permit using the 480 pixels for the 800 pixel width of my pages, then that would be even better. Some of the other iPhone resolutions are 750 × 1334, 1242 × 2208, and 1080 × 1920 pixels, and there my pages 800 pixels wide should look nearly perfect. What's the problem? I'm not seeing a problem? I'm trying to learn. Where am I going wrong? What am I not seeing?
- slang800 12y ago
  > With the horizontal scroll bars, the 320 pixels would be usable Try reading an article while operating a horizontal scrollbar... it's a horrible experience because every line requires you to scroll from left to right, and then back to the left. Also, your 800px page will still have a horizontal scrollbar on those devices because they're rendered at 2-3x, making the effective pixel-width of an iPhone 300px-400px. They could just zoom out really far and then use a magnifying glass to read it... thanks to the high resolution that would be possible, but it still wouldn't be pleasant. > I'm trying to learn. Where am I going wrong? What am I not seeing? Try visiting your site on a smartphone, a TV, a tablet, etc... you'll see the issue.

gentle-one 12y ago

You definitely don't create website on a professional level. If you want to build hobby websites with a fixed width of 800px as it is 1995... that's up to you. Complicated webpages don't have to be slow... if you landed on such one, then you've landed on a website created by an amateur.